Many organisations have made good progress in improving the diversity of their workforce in recent years. But could understanding and embracing intersectionality help them improve the experience of all employees?
Diversity is not a linear issue. As companies seek to be representative of the communities they operate in and that make up their workforce, many still consider their diversity efforts in distinct, singular characteristics. For example, gender, race, ethnicity, sexuality and disability. But the reality is that any number of these categories overlap and intersect.
What is intersectionality?
In 1989, legal scholar Kimberlé Crenshaw wrote a paper coining the term ‘intersectionality’, as a way to explain the oppression of African-American women. The term has been used ever since and, in 2022, it still has as much relevance as it did in 1989. Crenshaw describes intersectionality as “a lens through which you can see where power comes and collides, where it interlocks and intersects. It’s not simply that there’s a race problem here, a gender problem, and a class or LGBTQ problem there”.
Adwoa Bagalini, Engagement, Diversity and Inclusion Lead at the World Economic Forum (WEF), explains why intersectionality is just as important now as it was in 1989. In an article for the WEF, she says that diversity and inclusion programmes that do not take intersectionality into account risk overlooking the experiences of those who are marginalised. For example, “while white women will reach gender parity with men in the States in 2059, the data shows that for Black women this date is 2130, and 2224 for Hispanic women.”
Lauren Baker, COO at Skillsize, a talent intelligence platform, describes intersectionality as “the overlapping of identities such as race, gender and sexuality and recognising the differences both between and within them, as well as the overall effect this can have on an individual’s experiences”.
Why is intersectionality important for organisations?
A 2019 report by Culture Amp, titled Workplace Diversity, Inclusion, and Intersectionality, gives an example of how intersectionality could present itself at work. “Intersectionality considers different systems of oppression, and specifically how they overlap and are compounded to shape the employee experience. For example, within gender, a 31-year-old white woman with no children will likely have a very different experience to a 42-year-old Black woman with two children. Intersectionality means we view the whole person, not their characteristics separately.”
Baker says that intersectionality is hugely important to businesses, “to not only promote diversity within their organisation but understand how different people are affected and take the necessary action to mitigate negative outcomes”.
So, why is intersectionality such a key issue for businesses to be aware of? “It’s a blind spot that’s easy for many organisations to miss, even as they strive to foster more inclusive work environments,” Bagalini explains. “All stages of the employee journey may be impacted by intersectionality, from recruitment to onboarding, performance reviews and promotions to turnover rates. Who is leaving and why? Who is being referred to the organisation by friends or colleagues? If employees sense that they are not welcome and cannot bring their full selves to work, then they will likely find it difficult to advance, will not refer the company to others in their network, and will probably leave sooner than others.”
Antonio Macías, HR Manager for the Iberia region at Edwards Lifesciences, adds that the pandemic revealed even more clearly the different experiences individuals are facing: “We need to embrace and welcome these differences to continue building stronger businesses that can overcome the times we are living in.”
Six ways organisations can improve on intersectionality
So, while it is clear that it’s important for organisations to recognise and understand intersectionality, what can they do to improve in this area? Here are six steps to take.
1. Recognise individual identities
Companies should seek to develop a better understanding of intersectionality and recognise an individual’s multiple identities that may overlap. Awareness is key here, but as Bagalini explains, the willingness to acknowledge the ‘blind spot’ also needs to be addressed. “More often than not, leaders may be complacent about practices within their organisations and believe that, since they and their colleagues feel welcome at work, the same is true for everyone,” she explains. Developing empathy and being sure to check in with others who identify differently is important to get a sense of what could be done better, she adds.
Enabling employees to identify their diversity dimensions voluntarily is a crucial starting point, as are employee engagement surveys where data is reasonably disaggregated by several of those dimensions. Doing so can then reveal the different experiences of different groups.
For example, McKinsey’s Women in the Workplace Report 2020 found that, while 46 per cent of men had felt stressed during the pandemic, 53 per cent of women said they had felt the same way. Yet this rose to 61 per cent of women with disabilities. There were also different experiences for women of different races. The survey found that 55 per cent of white women had felt stressed compared with 47 per cent of Asian women, 49 per cent of Latina women and 47 per cent of Black women.
2. Capture data to improve intersectionality
But while insightful, how can this sort of data be captured in the first place? “It’s important for every organisation to have good, up-to-date, diversity data,” says Monica Parker, Founder of HATCH Analytics, a data analytics company. “This is most easily collected by anonymous surveys sent out to the business. The key for this type of data is to get very high response rates, as otherwise its extrapolation may not be accurate, especially when looking at intersectionality.”
She says that achieving this is dependent on employees having high levels of trust in their organisation. They must be clear that equality, diversity and inclusion (ED&I) is more than just a box-ticking exercise. And while anonymous data may not identify specific intersectional segments, it can begin to give a broader picture on the nuances of the lived experiences of various team members. Organisations can then use this data to support ED&I initiatives such as affinity groups, conscious inclusion training and benchmarking. “Where you can, encourage people to tell their own stories of intersectionality and ways they have felt accepted or rejected based on their unique experience,” she says.
The final part of the data journey is to respond. “This is the simplest and hardest element of any ED&I initiative,” Parker says. She encourages organisations to set a goal, try to deliver on it, and make the whole process transparent. “I believe that if you collect data about ED&I, you have an obligation to do something tangible and measurable with it,” she concludes.
3. Create a culture of acknowledgement and understanding
Companies need to understand the scope of intersectionality so they can address those challenges directly. But how can businesses support their employees in reaching their full potential, without labelling them?
Baker says that labelling employees can create a biased perspective, which can in turn lead to unfair treatment and injustice. “This can significantly affect the morale of employees, especially if labelled negatively and unfairly,” she says. Baker explains that the key is to ensure employees feel empowered and have the full backing of the organisation. She suggests that this could take form as encouraging peer-led communities to grow and organising company-wide events to enable the “sharing of knowledge, bringing people together in learning and understanding others in the workplace and the range of diversities”.
Bagalini suggests consulting with the employees concerned to seek their input, and encourages companies not to necessarily shy away from labels, but use them to prompt conversations instead. “Many employees from under-represented groups do embrace labels as a way of reclaiming their identities and being empowered by them, instead of shying away. It is frequently hurtful for people of colour to hear from well-meaning colleagues that they ‘don’t see colour’, thereby effectively erasing their experiences of discrimination and absolving themselves of any responsibility to act,” she explains.
Baker says that obtaining a culture of acknowledgement and understanding helps to build and sustain an environment of openness and inclusion, giving confidence to both a company’s employees and customers that they are socially responsible and trustworthy. “With a workforce that trusts they have equal opportunities and their mental wellbeing is cared for, comes a higher level of satisfaction for individuals and an increased level of productivity and engagement for the organisation,” she says.
4. Capture diversity of thought
A workforce made up of people from different backgrounds with various abilities and experiences has a positive impact on the organisation as a whole. According to McKinsey’s Diversity Wins report, published in May 2020, “There is ample evidence that diverse and inclusive companies are likely to make better, bolder decisions – a critical capability in the [COVID-19] crisis.”
But while diversity of thought is beneficial to businesses, how does it relate to intersectionality? “Diversity of thought is the concept of our thinking being shaped by our backgrounds, culture, experiences and personalities,” explains Baker. “This relates to intersectionality by being able to take a broader approach in how we view others and appreciate the different elements of their identities, without stereotyping people or considering them as part of only one particular group.
“Diversity of thought is significantly important in organisations, as is the active consideration and enactment of equal opportunities,” says Baker.
“It is essential that companies can fully distinguish between the need to embrace diversity and inclusion and the need to harness a range of experiences and thought processes, to accelerate its strategic objectives.” She explains that businesses can harness this by understanding their people at a deeper level, considering not only professional but personal background and also considering competencies and psychometric ability. “The knowledge of this insight across its resources, in conjunction with a lens of diversity allows organisations to breed dynamic creativity, ideas and workforce agility whilst maintaining a culture of inclusiveness.”
While Bagalini agrees that diversity of thought is important, she warns against companies overtly striving for this “as it tends to provide an excuse or a cover not to address the thornier aspects of inclusion work”. She explains that, even in the same family, it would be difficult to find two people who think exactly alike, so it can be safely assumed that an organisation will have diversity of thought present regardless. “The same principles that go into harnessing the advantages of all other kinds of diversity apply here, namely when employees feel psychologically safe and can express themselves without fear, companies will better be able to reap the benefits of having employees who think differently from each other. Therefore, I am fairly confident that in pursuing goals of inclusion and equity for everyone regardless of identity, diversity of thought will be enhanced rather than suppressed.”
5. Help leaders to understand intersectionality
Intersectionality is important and complex, and organisations need to give consideration to how they equip their leaders with the confidence and skills to address these issues.
Each of us has a unique view of the world that has been shaped by our own unique, lived experience and our overlapping identities. Organisations should be asking themselves how to build high trust cultures and environments in which people are given the permission and the confidence to have meaningful conversations, encouraging people to have a curiosity about others’ lived experiences.
I am not suggesting that this is easy to navigate; it’s challenging, delicate and confronting. I recommend engaging an external specialist to help facilitate conversations about bias awareness. This can help to build confidence and give leaders a set of tools and a vocabulary to help them to have these conversations with each other and with their people.
Inclusive leadership is about creating a high-trust culture; proactively seeking out or inviting divergent points of view, rather than being the single point of authority with all of the answers. This can feel counterintuitive, but leaders who ask for (and really listen to) others’ points of view tend to build higher trust environments for their colleagues.
Organisations can help develop more inclusive leadership practices by clearly articulating why inclusion is important. If people think your messaging is to ‘tick boxes’ they will not engage with it. It is also important to support your most senior leaders in their development so that they can be role models of more inclusive leadership behaviours.
6. Educate colleagues on intersectionality
But while leadership is important, to positively progress a company’s diversity and inclusion interests across a whole organisation, a level of understanding must exist across the entire workforce. Macías says that diversity should not be the reserve of marketing material for organisations, and that it should be embedded within the culture of a workplace. “The culture of a company is the experiences that your employees are living on a daily basis, therefore, you have to make sure your employees are living in a diverse environment as part of their regular work,” he says. “Your employees are the best ambassadors of your company and your culture,” he notes.
This can be contributed to by introducing formal and informal education on diversity themes, Baker suggests. “A more formal approach that ensures everyone gets the necessary exposure could be in the form of a mandatory learning and development curriculum that covers important topics, such as intersectionality, creating a culture of inclusion and how to be an ally to colleagues,” she says.
In contrast, a more informal approach with a reliance on peer-to-peer networks can help to develop a consistent culture of diversity acceptance, she explains. For example, the mixing of these networks can be advanced into the social interaction between employees, such as celebrations of global cultural events including Pride, Diwali and Black History Month.
Baker says colleagues can be allies by trying to understand, and directly acknowledging and addressing, how privilege contributes to oppressive systems. “Having this understanding can help promote further education. The responsibility for this is wider than just that of the marginalised group,” she notes.
Bagalini says that, as well as using intranets or other internal communications channels to share information on the topic of intersectionality, it is worth encouraging employee resource groups to form and share information with their peers. “Making sure that this is embedded within ongoing events and initiatives rather than seeing it as an entirely separate workstream” is also crucial.
“Within almost every topic that organisations communicate to employees about, there are opportunities to point out how these support goals of diversity and belonging – so the task is to find those opportunities and use them, and eventually make sure that this becomes second nature,” she concludes.
This blog was originally written as part of the Hays Journal.
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So today, we’re joined by Leadership Coach Simi Rayat and Rhonda Williams, CEO of Dream Life Academy, who are here to share the key challenges that female leaders of colour face and how to best overcome these obstacles.
1. Please could you introduce yourself to our listeners? Simi let’s start with you.
(01:02) My name is Simi Rayat. My background is a Chartered Business Psychologist, I work as an Executive Leadership Coach and I help corporate leaders to develop their leadership brilliance. So, I work with a lot of female leaders globally to help them progress to senior positions, particularly women of colour. I’m the founder and owner of a thriving psychology coaching practice here in London called Wellbeing Face, I’m super excited to be part of this conversation with you both today and I really appreciate the space to discuss such an important topic.
2. And, Rhonda, how about yourself? Please, could you let us know a little bit about your background and your current role?
(01:42) Absolutely, I’m so excited to be here with you. So, my name is Rhonda Williams and I am an emotional intelligence strategist. I also am an executive coach helping leaders to get more consistent outcomes in the work that they do. I also work with women of colour in particular, to help them pursue and obtain executive level roles. By background, I’m a registered nurse and I’ve spent lots of time in hospitals and in leadership positions. I’ve held executive level roles such as Chief Nursing Officer and hospital CEO and a couple of VP level positions as well, one for a global organisation. And so, I’m very excited about this conversation, this is a very important topic that’s near and dear to my heart.
3. Now, I wanted to begin by asking you what has been your experience of being a woman of colour in the corporate world so far in your career?
(02:39) Really great question, Megan. It’s been interesting. I’ve had an amazing experience in my career. I have had some amazing opportunities that I’ve worked really hard for. I’ve also experienced some challenges along the way. And each of those challenges, in them, I find that there is an opportunity for learning and thinking about what I can take away and what can I add to my toolbox.
Some of those challenges are frankly because you’re a woman of colour, but it’s so important to me that we understand what that means and how that contributes to the wholeness of who we are. There’s a saying in the black community that says, “You have to work twice as hard for half as much.” Well, this is absolutely a saying and a myth that I’d love to see end. There is no reason for women of colour to feel like they must work any harder than anyone else because I personally don’t believe that success is synonymous with “hard work,” whatever that means. It’s important that you show up in your full and authentic self and that you take ownership of what that means but some of your experience is directly connected to those above and below you. And I want all of your listeners to really hear this.
Sometimes it’s not about how hard you’re working. You may simply be in a place that is either supporting, helping and uplifting you or you may be in an environment that is hindering you in some way. And it’s up to you to identify that and then take decisive actions to help manage and minimise that. So, some of it is your environment and the network that you build but even so, we have amazing opportunities in front of us.
4. Has your experience changed during the course of the pandemic and as a result of the Black Lives Matter movement?
(04:33) It’s so interesting. Being here in the States and living the whole Black Lives Matter movement front and centre, my experience is that it really has not changed during the pandemic, unfortunately so. The core issues that exist for women of colour are still here, they are deeply embedded, systemic and structural. We hear these stories every single day.
As I talk to leaders who are looking to pursue those higher-level positions, they share stories every single day that let us know that this has not changed. What is amazing and positive is there is more awareness and simply having awareness gives us the ability to elevate the conversation and approach this a little bit differently.
As I said earlier, it’s so important for us to know that even though this truly hasn’t changed yet, I think there is small movement and progress and we still have to be in that position of taking ownership of ourselves and our circumstances. We simply cannot wait for the world to be fairer. So, self-ownership, in my view, is really the path to true success.
5. For those listening who may be of other genders and/or races, how can they go about truly understanding what the unique experiences of women of colour and indeed those of other minorities in their organisations are? What role do organisations have in facilitating this?
(06:06) That’s a great question, Megan. Creating the dialogue and raising the awareness is key. It’s about being curious to listen, to learn, not to judge or assume, which needs to be encouraged and led from the top, so from the board.
And I think it’s about creating a culture of psychological safety where people feel accepted and respected. So, this can be through forums and open discussions where people of all backgrounds, genders, levels within the organisation can talk about their experiences and share their ideas on how the organisation can become more diverse and inclusive. And then in turn, have these ideas turned into strategic initiatives that are owned and supported by senior leaders. Reaching out to external providers, diversity, and inclusion specialists to really facilitate these conversations, to enable those conversations to happen more openly and to foster healthy conversations around this topic is absolutely vital.
And I think, to add to that point, it’s also then using this insight and involving different levels in the organisation as part of the co-creation of the policy. And it’s so important that the new policies are designed by the diverse representation of the organisation’s employees. And the sessions that I talk about in terms of facilitating those conversations, they can be on topics around what it is like in terms of flexible working in the organisation, what is the promotions process like, what is the recruitment process like, what are people’s experiences around being managed and being led in the organisation.
So, I think that real curiosity to learn and not to assume is massively critical here. And I think, also, it’s really becoming aware of our own unconscious bias. And then this goes beyond just the unconscious bias training that happens in the training forums in organisations but it’s ensuring that those conversations continue outside of the training so that it’s part of the everyday conversations and our interactions with others and it’s part of how we show up when we are working and we are interacting with others.
6. Now, Rhonda, in 2020, it was reported that of all Fortune 500 CEOs, 1% were black, 2% were Asian, 2% were Latino, and 5% were women. What do you think has led to this and what steps do those at the top need to make to improve these statistics?
(08:53) Well, when I hear those numbers, I think to myself “Why is this? How did we get here?” And if we rewind and we think about the history, obviously, for years and years, business was dominated by the white males and that just was the way that it was. And so, there’s a systemic process that’s built into sustaining this. It’s not always something that we’re trying to do, it just happens.
For instance, Simi mentioned the promotion process. If you are with an organisation and you have an opening, what are you likely to do? You’re likely to think about those in your network that might be a good fit for this. Well, who’s in your network? If everyone in your network looks like you, then you can see how it would easily lead to someone looking like you getting the position. And that doesn’t mean that you’re approaching it with any malintent. It simply believes that we must be more thoughtful in how we bring this forward.
So, organisations, really must look closely at this. And as they think about where they are, Simi mentioned becoming curious, so where are we, who are we. One way to really engage this curiosity is to conduct an assessment of the organisation – “Where are we in terms of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging?”. I recommend that that be done by an external, third party or an independent source. You don’t want yourself internally going through and asking these questions because we know we have biases, we know we love our organisations, we know that we have positive intent. So, having an external person come in and help you with this to engage with you as a partner to say “Where are we? Are we really elevating our environment of belonging?” and then looking at those gaps that may arise out of the survey.
And so, when you’ve finished the survey, you’re likely to say, “We’re doing really great in some areas and we have some opportunities”. Well, where do we close those gaps? How can we bring the entire team together and really begin to live our values to understand that who we aspire to be as an organisation has to be reflected in the type of team that we build and the environment that we build? I think that’s really important.
As we do the assessment, it’s so important to know that the idea is not about judgment and there is no blaming. This is simply about understanding where you are versus where you would like to be and then engaging in very substantive actions that go beyond performative statements. One of my pet peeves is performative actions and statements. I put a sign up or I post on social media and I say “Yes, Black Lives Matter and we support that” but there’s no real action, no real substance behind it. So, to really move the organisation forward, it requires substantive actions and it requires the organisational leaders to truly commit to lasting and sustainable change.
7. And Simi, following on from some of Rhonda’s points just now, many organisations have hired heads of or directors of diversity and inclusion. How important is it that these people have a regular communication to the C-suite?
(12:31) I think it’s absolutely critical and commitment to gender, cultural diversity needs to come from the board. The target setting, the budget allocation, appointing leaders that are responsible for gender, race, diversity and inclusion, fostering a culture of inclusion and measuring the success of these initiatives, the accountability needs to start from the top.
I think that the progress in the last decade has been made in terms of organisations hiring specific leaders of diversity and inclusion but it’s often one person or a small team but it needs to be championed at different levels in the organisation and in local geographies as well. And I also believe middle managers have a greater influence than perhaps they realise to foster and role model those behaviours to a broader spectrum of employees that are looking up from entry-level roles and looking up to them and beyond.
I think, also, essentially it needs to be wider and not just be the spoken values of the organisation, but it needs to be actioned. As Rhonda said, it needs to be actioned through the policies, through the way structured processes are designed and it needs to be experienced and felt by every person in the organisation. And that can only happen if it is ingrained within the systems the way in which organisations and people within those organisations collaborate, communicate, and how decisions are designed to make.
8. And what do you think are the unique challenges and issues faced by women of colour in the workplace, regardless of role or seniority? What role do leaders and organisations have in helping overcome these?
(14:28) I think there are unique challenges that are real for women of colour. And, in fact, we don’t refer to it as the glass ceiling metaphor. We refer to it as a concrete ceiling, illustrating that it’s even tougher for women of colour more so than white females going through the higher ranks of an organisation to the highest ranks within an organisation. And I categorise these unique challenges into three main areas.
The first one really is around stereotypes and perceptions. So, often women of colour will feel that they’re overlooked, and they’ll feel somewhat invincible in an organisation. Quite often we’re judged by false stereotypes and quite often we will need to justify why we’ve made certain decisions and questions. I was working with an Indian CEO leader a short while back and the stories that she was sharing with me in terms of how her decisions as a CEO were still being questioned in certain parts of her role whereas male counterparts in senior positions, their decisions weren’t being half as questioned or at all questioned as they were with her.
Also, I think it goes back to Rhonda’s point that most women of colour do grow up with the belief that you have to be twice as good as them to be successful, that you have to work really hard. And often this is a perception that women of colour hold that to get ahead, we do have to work harder, we must work longer hours. And in some ways, we end up overcompensating and doing a lot more without it being recognised and acknowledged.
Also, when a woman of colour exerts assertiveness, that can be perceived as being angry or a bossy woman rather than being perceived as a respected and an assertive leader. It’s quite interesting because the spots at the top are very limited as well for females, let alone for women of colour. So, there’s often that perception as well but maybe I’m rejected by other women of colour especially when there are so few seats at the top.
The second area really is around opting out. So, when we look up in the organisation and we see that the role models that are in the most senior positions in the organisation, many women who get to these positions tend to emulate a lot of masculine qualities. And when women or aspiring female leaders look up to them, they don’t feel that they can relate to those qualities or they feel that they don’t align with those behaviours or those values and they don’t want to conform so, they opt out.
Also, there are too few role models. There are not enough women at the top that embody the diversity of the employees that are looking up to them. So, our biological need to fit in, we see this as a threat, and this encourages us again to opt out because no one at the top looks like me or talks like me or is going to understand me.
And I think the other point is around being torn between being authentic and stimulating. And we tend to opt out in terms of sharing the more personal and vulnerable side of ourselves. Many women of colour feel that personal information they may share about themselves or if they reveal too much, they fear that that could be used against them. So, not opening up and having that authentic real self can be quite hard to bring to the workplace, especially when you are trying to head for those more senior positions.
Finally, I would say it’s about not being supported, so quite often being overlooked. Women of colour tend to need to go actively to find their own mentors. Quite a lot of managers may not be in tune with their career goals and therefore, they may not feel supported. And perhaps they’re less likely to have bosses that are going to promote their work contributions to others and really help them navigate the organisational politics or socialise them outside of work.
So, often they’re left feeling on the outside of these informal networks but, as we know, a lot of those informal networks do propel a lot of high potentials forward in their careers. And I think it’s really important in terms of a lack of mentorship, sponsorship or allies, as we know these individuals or networks and particular roles in these networks do play a critical role in terms of getting ahead and supporting women to get ahead.
So, going back to your question in terms of what managers can do. I think, companies have already invested a lot in diversity and inclusion training, which is great, the unconscious bias training but it really has to go beyond this. And it starts with what Rhonda said in terms of having a real honest assessment of where we are now on our recruitment practices, retention, cultural audience, talent development plans. Where are we? Let’s have that real honest assessment now, measure those clearly against best practice and also then recognise where we need to be. Once we know the gap, it’s then looking at how those policies and how those strategies can be designed more appropriately. And, again, coming back to the co-production point, I think that’s really important here.
And I think the other final point to really raise is around women of colour and especially not just women of colour but women generally tend to not put themselves forward for roles unless they feel that they have got all of the skills and qualifications, whereas men are likely to be more likely to take that risk and put themselves forward.
So, even with recruitment practices, it’s also looking at why not assessment of potential, not just competencies because, as we know, a few executives have all of the competencies of an executive. Women of colour are less likely to put themselves forward unless they feel that they have all the experience. So, by assessing for potential and assessing for things like learning agility, curiosity, self-insight, engagement, determination, these are all really good ways to widen and broaden the candidate talent pool and it’s also illustrating to female leaders that you don’t have to be there exactly right now but you can still put yourself forward for promotions and the senior opportunities and make it known that you are wanting to get ahead.
Thank you, Simi, and I agree the concrete ceiling is a very powerful and a very telling metaphor.
9. Rhonda, do you think women of colour in particular feel they can’t call out any bias or inequality they may be experiencing in the workplace? And what can employers do to help their employees feel comfortable raising concerns and opening this conversation?
(21:59) This goes directly to one of the points that Simi made and, Simi, your points were amazing in that previous response. And one of the things that you mentioned is feeling like you can show up as your authentic self. And that’s so important for women of colour in the workplace. We are all unique and different and we bring something different. And there we talk about valuing diversity but truly valuing in the way that we allow everyone in our environment to feel true to themselves. It took me many years to feel that I could open-up in the workspace and be my authentic self because of the things that Simi mentioned. I was concerned whether I going to fit in, was I going to be judged for certain things, but as I’ve gotten older and really began to lean more into who I am, that’s become a little bit easier for me.
So, now I celebrate that I’m a woman who absolutely loves NFL football and I sit around on Sundays and I watch football with my sons and we eat too much and we have drinks and we have fun and I don’t watch love stories and I love action movies. And so, all the things and all the fullness of who we are as women of colour, we absolutely need to be comfortable bringing that in a judgment-free place.
And so, as we think about whether we feel if we can speak up about bias or inequalities, if we don’t feel that we are in that place of psychological safety or represented, then you tend to default to that self-preservation mode or what Simi referred to as opting out. You don’t feel safe because you will be judged too harshly, you’re now going to be viewed as the complainer.
There was a study that was done that shows that when people of colour in general bring concerns forward, it is viewed as whining. I want your listeners to hear this. If I, as a woman of colour, came forward and said “Well, hey, I’m going to just share how I felt in X, Y, and Z. Here’s what happened,” people are often viewing us as “Oh, here they go again. They’re complaining and whining” where if we had someone, one of our white counterparts, bring that very same issue forward, it’s received differently. And that’s a study that’s been repeated, and so, the results continue to be the same.
So, what does that tell us? It’s not always safe to come forward. And so, organisations must work hard and be intentional in creating that space of awareness, of openness, inclusion and not only inclusion, but of belonging. Instead of just waiting for someone to bring forward, ask and get curious, as Simi mentioned. Ask folks how things are doing, how they are feeling. Ask general questions about “Do you feel safe here? Do you feel like you can be yourself? And if not, what can we do?”.
The leaders don’t have to have all the answers. Sometimes the team that is working with you, they’re more than willing to help in solutioning but we have got to ask the questions. And so, being comfortable calling out biases or inequities requires you to build trust with your team. And trust is not an event, trust is a journey and it can be violated or broken at any point and you may hit the reset button to zero and then you must rebuild it. It’s an ongoing evolving type of element that exists in your organisations.
So, in today’s challenging climate, we should be asking the questions, we should be intentionally engaging in trust building behaviours because there are behaviours that build trust and then there are behaviours that cause trust to feel violated or it reduces trust in your organisation. So, creating that place of psychological safety typically is not accidental. This is an intentional act and journey by the organisation so that women of colour can feel comfortable speaking up about biases or inequities because that is the only way the organisation can grow and can improve.
(Simi – 26:27) Can I just add to those amazing points, Rhonda? Your point around trust, I think, is so important about trust and being intentional. And often, I think, as leaders we think trust is sweeping in a moment of crisis and being the superhero and saving the day but it’s really not about that. Trust is really built over time through small significant moments. And I think quite often as leaders we forget that and really recognising that through those small moments of time, frequently demonstrating opportunities where trust can be built, that’s how trust is built with a leader and their teams.
(27:16 – Rhonda) Absolutely, Simi, and what’s important about that is that as leaders and organisations are looking to build trust, it has to go across all levels of the organisation. We want to be mindful of the fact that trust does not come by issuing a pay cheque, right? A pay cheque is not synonymous with trust. Trust comes in the way that you interact and the way that you treat your team.
10. Rhonda, how important do you feel sponsorship and mentorship is in helping women of colour progress their careers and helping leaders advocate for this?
(28:05) This is such an important question. And I think the first place we start with sponsorship and mentorship is understanding the difference between the two. So, if you are a woman of colour and you are in the workspace and the workplace, it’s important to know if you are in need of sponsorship or mentorship to understand the difference between the two and the value that that can bring in terms of not only your career growth but also your personal growth.
So, I view mentorship as a relationship. It’s often a relationship that is a pull relationship. And by pull, I mean, you are likely to be the one initiating the interaction with your mentor, you will be the person who is going forward saying to your mentor “Hey, can I get on your calendar? Can we spend a couple of minutes? What can you share? What did you see here? What was your experience?” So, you’re actively seeking out that information many times in a mentor relationship. Often the mentor relationship is unpaid. It is someone who believes in you and is willing to invest their own time and energy in helping you grow and seeing you succeed.
A sponsor is very different. A sponsor is a person that you are looking to with the distinct goal of helping you move your career forward. Sometimes and likely they are a person who is within organisation while a mentor can be internal or external. So, a mentor can be anyone that you look up to, that you have respect for, and that you feel comfortable with. A sponsor is going to be someone who’s within the organisation and they are operating from a position of privilege and power. And that sponsor is going to be the one who is bringing you forward. They are elevating your voice. They are championing for you both when you are in the room with them and when you’re not.
How amazing is it to have a sponsor that is in a closed-door meeting and a subject comes up which you are an expert in and that sponsor says “You know what, I think Simi would be an amazing person to bring into this. She’s got this skillset. She’s been a dynamic part of our team and I would love to see her have the opportunity here.” That sponsor is really advocating for you behind the scenes. The sponsor is also going to come to you and share some feedback with you because this is how you’re going to grow. The sponsors should have your permission to bring forward anything that they feel can help you. For example, if you were showing up in the workplace and you are not showing confidence, you are not being consistent, or bringing your full self to work in a way that people can really begin to see you at those elevated levels. The sponsors should have your permission to share that feedback with you. You should create that space for them knowing that their desire is to help you succeed.
Also, I want to say this important point about sponsorship because I’m working with a partner, we are designing a program for sponsorship in an organisation. And a part of your question was how leaders can advocate for this. For many organisations, if you are a large Fortune 500 organisation, you should have a formal sponsorship program. If you are even a mid-sized business, you should have a formal sponsorship program, meaning your sponsor knows what it means to be a sponsor, they are understanding and accepting of that role. The worst thing we can do is try to make someone a sponsor who does not desire to be a sponsor and doesn’t know how to be a sponsor.
So, creating formalised structures and processes around it, this is a part of what I mentioned earlier in terms of truly committing to substantive actions, to going beyond performative, to creating processes and structures that are going to support your efforts for diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. So, the difference between a mentor and a sponsor and helping the sponsors receive the education so that they can be amazing sponsors and help elevate the voices, competence, and the potential of women of colour in the workspace.
11. What role does allyship play in really tackling inequality in the workplace?
(32:59) I love this, and this is so important. And I think we touched on this a little bit earlier, as you stated, Meghan. For allyship, it is about number one, are you empathetic with women of colour and those in the workplace that might be from marginalised communities which is a term that I don’t particularly care for but it is one that is popular. So, I’ll use it in that vein. Are you understanding of that?
And then, are you an ally, meaning are you saying “I believe in this. I believe diversity, equity and inclusion is the right thing to do, it’s the human thing to do and I am willing to commit myself to being involved and being a part of the solution”? If that is you, then you have the potential to be an amazing ally. And as an ally, what we ask is that you continue to lift the voices, to point out biases and equities. It cannot always be the person of colour pointing it out.
As I referenced this study earlier, we know when it is only the person of colour pointing it out, then it just is viewed as “Blah, blah, blah. Here they are whining again” but when others are pointing it out, it gets a different level of attention. So, we absolutely need our allies to step forward and speak up. For women of colour, one of the challenges that we sometimes face is maybe we’re in a meeting and we make a statement or we put forth a solution or an idea and we’ll get sort of a cursory “Oh, well, that’s lovely” and then we’ll move on to the next person. Well, when our white counterpart puts forth the same idea and everyone goes “Well, that’s brilliant. We absolutely love that,” the role of an ally in that situation is to step forward and say “Oh, you think this is a great idea. That’s so wonderful that you agree with the point Rhonda made earlier. So, how can we come together and move this forward?”
It’s a little subtle raising of awareness that we need. The role of an ally is to speak out. And that doesn’t always have to be public, that can very well be private, to go to someone privately to say “Hey, I’m not sure if you realise this and this is probably not your intention but here’s how it landed. Here’s how it felt. Here’s how it may have felt to our women of colour in a workplace. And I think that we are all committed to being mindful and creating an inclusive environment.” We must bring these things forward because otherwise, there simply isn’t the progress, we don’t build momentum, or get the push forward.
And so, it’s important that our allies are willing to speak up. Sometimes, it’s at risk to themselves and we absolutely understand and appreciate and get that. I would like to believe that they could do that in a way that creates that safety for themselves because if we don’t have allies in the workplace, then where are we? We’re back to square one.
So, it’s important that allies understand that this is a commitment to a cause. This is a commitment to our shared humanity to create a more fair, inclusive, and equitable environment and being unrelenting about that, not doing that from the background.
I’ll just give you a quick example. Sometimes I’ll be involved in a situation and it feels unfair and I speak up because at that moment, that is what is needed. So, I speak forward and no one else says anything, but then I go back to my office and I close my door and a colleague comes in and says “I’m so glad you spoke up. That just wasn’t right. That was so unfair.” – “Well, why did you not speak up at the meeting? Why was I the only person that spoke up?” And in that moment, we need our allies to step forward and to create that power in unity that we have together to say that this is not okay. So, the role of sponsors, mentors, and allies, they are all critical in tackling inequity in the workspace.
12. Now Simi, turning back to you, many women of colour may feel they’re not given the same personal development opportunities as others in the workplace. How can leaders tackle this and remove any bias in these processes?
(37:36) Well, I think when training is offered, many females think it’s because they have got to be fixed but this is not true. It’s really about recognising that there are flaws in the system and the policies but it’s also about helping women to develop their own confidence, as Rhonda said, for them to have that voice and to be able to push through these challenges.
And it’s also recognising the difference here between equality and equity. Equity acknowledges that difference or inequality does exist, but it aims to provide specific support to those under-representative groups to create that even playing field. So, it’s not that the same training needs to be provided for everyone but it’s really recognising where these thirteen leaders are at and what training or coaching, or as Rhonda mentioned, a mentorship sponsorship program would be most appropriate for them. And it’s really about their leaders and their managers really tapping into understanding where they’re at and where their aspirations lie and being able to be really, truly open to support them and provide the provision and support very intentionally and proactively.
13. Now, for many leaders and employees, the Black Lives Matter movement has shone a light on the inequalities that exist within their organisations. Now, I’d really like to know which organisations have most impressed you in their response?
(39:10) It’s such an interesting question, Megan. Large global businesses and CEOs, it was great to see that they came out and they shared their views on social media.
I quite like Amazon’s example here that they had the banner of Black Lives Matter on their homepage and they had a blog that gave further insight and support in terms of support that they were providing to black communities. I remember reading that one Amazon customer had complained about the slogan and he had come back to say “All Lives Matter” but Jeff Bezos replied but “Black lives matter. It doesn’t mean that other lives don’t matter.” And he went on to say that Black Lives Matter speaks to racism and the disproportionate risks that black people face in our law enforcement and justice system. And I think this is such an important point because as public engagement and the talk and interaction with the Black Lives Matter movement starts to slow down and as time passes on, as humans, we tend to forget some of these large injustices that have happened.
The question that I think that we need to keep asking ourselves is how we maintain the momentum because the momentum needs to be maintained. The awareness is out there now but action needs to happen. And I think, for organisations, it can be quite easy for them to come out when incidences like this happen and come out and speak and voice their opinion but at the same time, it’s then looking at what are they really going to do in terms of what are they actually going to commit to, to creating lasting change when they’re away from the high level of scrutiny. And it’s looking at “Well, what are the actual actions? What are the changes that are going to be made? When is that true assessment going to happen around their policies and systems and structures and when are those changes going to be made?”
I think another important point to raise here is especially large global organisations, they have a great opportunity as well to influence and have a greater impact especially when they’re working with third-party suppliers. So, if they’re using suppliers for their recruitment practices, for their talent development practices, working through that supply chain and working with suppliers that also buy into supporting the initiatives and the direction and their view on supporting this movement. And I think that’s hugely important because they can have an influence to really impact the wider systems and the impact on the policy at a wider level for a greater number of organisations.
And, I think it’s realising that as organisations review their diversity and inclusion policies and practices throughout the organisation across all the policies and practices, it’s remembering that Black Lives Matter is one part of that strategy. It’s absolutely an important part of that strategy but it’s one part of that strategy and that we still must be inclusive to other minority groups as part of that strategy though in its entirety, it is completely inclusive. And I think that’s where organisations can make a huge significant difference but it’s about taking action now.
And it’d be interesting. Rhonda, have you got any examples of organisations that you’ve come across that you’ve seen some real active changes in how they’re operating because of Black Lives Matter movement?
(43:12 – Rhonda) Really great question, Simi. One of the things that, in working with the partner, we’re in the active process of doing is going out and looking at statements by corporations that were made during the whole Black Lives Matter movement because in effect, what we plan to do is to go back and contact them to say “Okay, what was this followed up by?” And it’s great. The statement was amazing, yes, absolutely, but it can’t just be that.
And so, I’m not sure about specific companies but I wanted to add something, I think, that’s important. There’s a story that sort of has been floating around when we say that “black lives matter” and the response is “all lives matter.” There was a person who had just an amazing response to this and the response was “Well, saying “all lives matter” when you hear “black lives matters” is akin to saying all houses matter but there was one house that’s on fire. And so, let’s put water on all the houses, right? No, you need to care for the house that’s on fire.” And that was what that means.
And for organisations, they must understand their role and really move this conversation forward. We know that the median gap in terms of wealth for white Americans versus black Americans, for instance, is probably about a seven times difference, right? So, white Americans average about seven to eight more times wealth than the average black adult. Those types of challenges continue to plague us, and corporate America has a tremendous role to play in that. So, I’m not sure about the specific companies but I do know that that is one area that we want to engage in is really helping organisations to get a score and for that to be publicly recognised to say “Here’s where we are in our diversity initiatives and this is what it means to us and here’s what we’re doing about it.”
(45:07 – Simi) That’s fantastic, Rhonda. I think that accountability is so key.
14. Simi, what do you think are the three qualities that make an inclusive leader?
(45:29) I would say the first one is about being deeply self-aware. So, being aware of your own biases, personal flaws and then using your emotional intelligence to be able to manage how you show up and the impact that you have on others.
Secondly, I think, it’s about being curious and proactive. So, really showing that curiosity and open mindset to listen, to learn from others without judgment and listen with empathy to understand.
And, finally, I think it’s really about engaging from a place of compassion, again, using your emotional intelligence but using your cultural map, your intelligence to adapt and flex your authenticity and style to really bring out the best in those that you lead and engage because the more authentic you are and the more in tune you are with how to be able to adapt your style, you’re role modelling that for others in your team as well . And I think that really allows for an inclusive environment to be fostered within the organisation.
15. And finally, the same question to you, Rhonda. What do you think are the three qualities that make an inclusive leader?
(46:53) Really great question. To add on to what Simi mentioned, listening is such a critical skill. Often, times when we are thinking about communication, we’re thinking about speaking and getting our point of view across. However, the art of listening is so critical in terms of being a leader who is really seeking to be that inclusive leader.
So, it’s the art of listening for not only what is being said but what’s not being said. What is not being said in your organisation because people are not comfortable, they don’t have that place of psychological safety, they don’t believe that if they speak up, there’s going to be a change, they’re afraid that there’s going to be a retribution if they speak up or they’re not committed or engaged really in the organisation, they don’t buy into the mission? So, not only what is being said but listening for what is not being said.
The second one, I would say, for that inclusive leader is a leader who is consistently inviting and honouring everyone’s perspectives and contributions, inviting those contributions, not just waiting for the person who may not feel comfortable and they may never speak up if you don’t ask them but how valued and appreciated do they feel when you stop and you say “You know, Nancy, I haven’t heard from you. I really would love to get your input and to hear your thoughts on this.”
And then, also, a leader who is committed to transparency in the organisational shortcomings, their own personal leadership shortcomings, and in establishing the goal of movement. Perfection is not the goal. Most teams do not look for their leaders to be perfect. They do look for them to be open and transparent and they do want to be a part of the solution in helping to move in that direction.
So, I would say really mastering the art of listening, inviting and honouring the perspectives of everyone on the team, especially those diverse voices, and then also really seeking to move forward and to lean into that role of being transparent in every phase of your leadership.
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Today in support of International Women’s Day 2021, we are joined by Leadership Coach, Simi Rayat and Rhonda Williams, CEO of Dream Life Academy, who are here to share the key challenges women of colour face in their careers and how to best overcome these obstacles.
1. To begin with, please could you introduce yourself to our listeners? Simi, we’ll begin with you if that’s okay.
(00:57) Yes, so my name is Simi Rayat. My background is as a Chartered Business Psychologist, I work as an Executive Leadership Coach and I coach leaders to help elevate their leadership brilliance. So, I work with a lot of female leaders globally to help them progress, to feel empowered and strategically navigate their way through to senior positions; in particular, women of colour. And I’m the Founder and Owner of a thriving business and psychology practice called Wellbeing Face; based in London, but also serving clients globally.
2. And Rhonda, how about yourself?
(01:33) So, my name is Rhonda Y. Williams and I am, as you mentioned, the CEO and Chief Creative Officer of Dream Life Leadership Academy. In that work, I am an emotional intelligence strategist, and I say strategist because I work on helping leaders apply emotional intelligence principles to the work that they do so that they can get more consistent outcomes. I also focus on helping women of colour advance to executive level roles and positions and helping them in all aspects of that, whether that is the internal work that’s necessary and preparing them for that external work. And so, I am just super excited to be here with you all today.
3. And Rhonda, what has been your experience of being a woman of colour in the corporate world so far in your career?
(02:27) That’s a great question, Jon. For me, I am a registered nurse by background, and so I had the opportunity of growing up in healthcare and getting to see both sides of it as I began to advance in my career. I had the opportunity to go for and become a Chief Nursing Officer in healthcare, running the largest department in the hospital, overseeing all the nursing aspects, and then also to become eventually a hospital CEO. So, I’ve had a varied career and held the highest positions at the hospital level and then I’ve also held several VP-level roles.
And so, I’ve had a pretty varied experience and I’ve been able to see both the fun and then not so fun, the good and the bad, and everything in between that comes with being at those levels in the corporate world. And I will say, it has been challenging and it’s also been amazing with wonderful successes and opportunities. So, there’s absolutely been both sides of that. I have heard particularly that you always must work hard, but I learned something else along the way. I learned that it’s not always about how hard you work, particularly for women of colour, and I know we’re going to dive into a little bit of that more in our conversation.
4. Thank you for sharing your experiences, Rhonda. Obviously, there have been a lot of changes during the pandemic, do you think your experience has changed in any way during the pandemic?
(04:04) I don’t know so much that it has changed. I think what has changed is the level of awareness around us to some of the challenging situations that women of colour face, particularly in the corporate spaces and environments. And there seems to be more of an interest in understanding what some of those challenges are and an interest in helping to find solutions and pathways for us to begin to move forward.
And so, I am very encouraged by the level of awareness that is happening today because of the pandemic and, with Black Lives Matter and there’s just a lot happening in our world today. And I think we’ve got to continue to be curious on this journey as we move forward into solutions.
5. You mentioned the Black Lives Matter movement there. What impact do you think that and the growing polarisation especially that the US has had?
(05:06) Absolutely. It has been a powerful force for us all here. And for me, even personally speaking, I’ve been in the corporate space for a long time and just going about my work, doing my thing, but I will tell you that 2020 literally changed me and changed my perspective and I began to think about this world and this work that I do differently. In particular, how can I begin to make sure that I’m using my strengths and my skills to help elevate women of colour, to help position them in these higher-level leadership roles?
We absolutely must have those seats at the table because the decisions are made there, and without having that seat, we cannot have our voices heard and we don’t have the proper representation. And so it was personally impactful for me as a black woman with three black sons, the issue just was really heart-wrenching for me and it calls me to really begin to look at everything that I’m doing and how I’m contributing to this conversation.
(06:30) Fantastic question, Jon, it’s important that we all do this regardless of your race or gender. The challenges are real, they can be hugely subtle and you’re not going to know of them if we don’t open up the dialogue or be curious to find out more; and finding out more really helps to relate, engage, be compassionate, and it allows you to be supportive in your dealings and provide opportunities to offer support and create pathways and create opportunities.
So, I would recommend that it’s important to approach leaders of colour and ask them the questions of their experience. What has helped them to get to where they’ve got to? What has been some of their challenges and how they navigated through those challenges? Ask the questions of those people that sponsor women of colour and mentor them. Ask the questions of recruiters and hiring managers about their attraction and recruitment strategies.
You can tell a lot by how a company tackles and approaches racial diversity through its attraction and recruitment strategies. A couple of years ago, I did some really interesting work with a global professional services firm to really help them design workshops and familiarisation sessions to help BAME candidates become more familiar with the couple of the key competencies that they knew BAME candidates particularly struggled with. And that work was hugely rewarding, and it had an incredible powerful impact on the number of BAME female candidates that then secured permanent roles within this professional services firm.
I think it’s also important to speak with either previous employees or current graduates, and those are different levels of leadership in the organisation. That curiosity, as Rhonda said, because of the Black Lives Matter movement, the curiosity has been awakened and we really need to be able to be open to ask further questions and to really shine that light of curiosity to find out more.
6. In 2020, it was reported that of all the Fortune 500 CEOs, only 1% were black, 2% were Asian, 2% were Latino and 5% were women. So, there’s obviously a lot of work that needs to be done. What do you think had led to this and what impacts does this lack of representation have on the careers and outlook of those just starting out in the world of work?
(09:13) Yes, absolutely, Jon. those numbers are real and they’re representative of the uphill climb and battle that women sometimes face in the workspace. I think there are many reasons why we are where we are, particularly because the corporate space has always been a male-dominated place and it’s been dominated by white males and so that proceeds today. One of the important aspects for all of us, I believe, at the organisational level, we as leaders in both large organisations and small organisations have a tremendous opportunity in front of us to begin change.
In that change, one of the very first steps that I recommend is to do an honest assessment. This goes back to what Simi mentioned in terms of being curious, getting curious about your organisation and asking the question of “who are we,” not “who do we think we are,” or “who do we want to be,” but who are we right now in this day and this time particularly in terms of diversity, equity and inclusion.
Once you understand who you are and there’s an honest assessment to give you some feedback, now you have an opportunity to look at where you are versus where you want to be. How does where you are align with your organisational goals? Are they in alignment with your values and what are you hoping for? Where is it that you want to go? And then you have an amazing opportunity to begin applying substantive actions that can begin to close that gap.
It’s important here to know that this is not about fault or blame. This is simply about being curious and gaining an understanding of where you are versus where you want to be. And then I would also just add here that it is important for these actions to go beyond performative statements and gestures that just sound good. These actions need to be substantive so that they can drive the change that you want to see in your organisation.
7. Is the notion of “only-ness” a challenge for women of colour? So, for example, being acutely aware that you are the only person in the room that looks like you. What impact can that have?
(11:42) I have, throughout my career, been in a position where I’ve often felt that “only-ness” and being the “only,” and it’s a heavy weight to carry. When you think in terms of representation, we think of when you are in the political system, the term representation matters. And that often applies in other aspects of our lives as well, whether it’s in your community, are you the only person in your community; and then in the workspace, are you the only one there?
When you are that only person, you’re the only woman and then combined with the fact that you may be the only woman of colour, that matters and there’s a heaviness that can come with that. There doesn’t have to be, but you can very easily begin to feel like you are misunderstood, that others don’t hear you the same way or you may not have the same cultural relationship to the organisation.
And so, for organisations to be aware that that may be present so that it is not just the employee’s responsibility of stepping and leaning into that, but it’s a meeting of the minds. It’s a meeting of halfway where they say, listen, we recognise that you’re the only, and we are going to do our very best to make sure that you are included, valued, honoured, and respected in this process.
So, it can be a heavy weight to bear, but I think it’s on both parties, both the organisation and the leader and the other organisation leaders to come together to minimise that burden.
(Simi – 13:25) Just to add to that as well, Jon. I love what Rhonda shared there because I think it is about the organisation but it’s also about the individual. And as a woman of colour, it’s really then recognising that also as an opportunity if you are the only woman of colour in the room as a woman and you stand out, but you’re also more likely to be remembered. So, the point about sticking out can also be quite a positive attribute and it gives you the chance to really allow the spotlight to be shone on your unique skills, abilities, qualities, and the value that you bring to the table. So, perhaps instead of shrinking away, you’re shrinking back. The opportunity there is to step forward and make a lasting impression and be seen, be heard and take the opportunity to be visible.
(Rhonda – 14:21) I love that. And just to wrap that up quickly, Simi. There is a quote that I love, and it says, “Why are you trying so hard to fit in when you were clearly born to stand out?”. I love that and I often share that with my clients who are really dealing with what can sometimes feel heavy and being the only, and then we use that to step forward in all of their brilliantness and take that and use it as an opportunity to contribute in new ways to the organisation.
8. Now, Simi, we hear a lot about the importance of bringing your authentic self to work every day. Do you think that women of colour in particular struggle to do that? And if so, why, and what other barriers that they face? What steps can they take to overcome these?
(15:22) Yes, another great question, Jon. As a woman of colour myself and listening and hearing to experiences of other women of colour leaders, we fight hard to prove unfair stereotype that we’re unskilled or we’re too loud or too timid or not business-savvy, too brash, not sophisticated, which all of these are so untrue.
I recently coached a black CEO and she said she would always emphasise in any meeting that she was in that she has a law degree to ensure that she’s being taken seriously. And I think women of colour struggle with this because we are made to feel that you’re too much of this or too less of that and quite often worry about revealing too much about ourselves, just our personal selves as what we may reveal may be used against us in a promotion or in our progression at work.
So yes, some of the organisational cultures do intentionally or unintentionally make women of colour armour up. And these women armour up to protect ourselves from getting stung.
And similarly to the quote that Rhonda shared, I love Danielle Laporte quote, and she talks about you’ll always be too much or something, too much or small for someone, or too big or too loud or too edgy, but if you round up your edges, you lose your edge. And I love that quote because our uniqueness and our difference are what needs to be celebrated. But as we know, sometimes being different and standing out can be perceived by others as a threat and that we don’t quite fit the right image. And a huge part of the work that I do with women leaders is to coach them, to bring their authentic selves to work.
And by that I don’t mean that you must be this one authentic self in every situation that you’re in, but it’s mainly about being adaptive, I call it adaptive authenticity. Think of it as a light switch dimmer, you can turn the brightness up or down, depending on how much light you want to bring to a situation. So, for example, when I’m with my family and friends, my loud, giggly, enthusiastic self is out in abundance. On a scale of one to ten, it’s way up there being on the ten. but when I’m in a meeting with the executive team or the C-suite, I will dial back the giggly self and very kind of loud self, from say a ten to a six or a seven. But I won’t dial it all the way back to a zero or a one because then I’m not being my authentic self.
So, I think it’s hugely important to recognise what authenticity means and how you can adapt your authentic style in situations, so you feel comfortable and you feel that you’re able to be yourself. And just to add to that, it’s hugely important to engender a strong network of people around you. So, supporters, allies, sponsors, people that really recognise, acknowledge, value, and they appreciate your unique gift because it’s so important to be visible and create these opportunities. But also, when those opportunities present, take them up, step up, have your voice and opinions, and allow your message to be delivered.
Thank you very much. We must all help to create an environment where everybody can be their true self and that there are plenty of benefits to having that diversity across the board. Thank you very much for sharing your insights there.
9. Do you think there are any other issues and unique challenges women of colour are facing in the workplace right now and how can these be tackled? So, for instance, McKinsey recently reported that women of colour were more likely to have been made redundant or furloughed because of the COVID-19 pandemic.
(19:34) I think many women have been affected, especially those in retail, tourism, service industries. And the McKinsey research is important and highlights the very disproportioned number of women in colour in lowest skilled and lower earning roles and industries. And many of these industries are the ones that have been most impacted by the pandemic.
I think all the fathers and mothers that have both worked from home during this time, statistics do also show that the majority of the women have had to brunt the greater responsibility with childcare, home schooling, managing the house and managing their careers. And some of these women have then resorted to reducing their hours or having no choice but to leave their roles or some have been furloughed.
I think it really brings about some interesting opportunities here and some challenges that absolutely need to be addressed. It’s quite similar to the concept to the maternal wall, which is another phrase that’s often used to relate to working mothers and when women childbear or in childbearing age, or they need to take off time to give birth or be on maternity leave, their childcare responsibility. A lot of those circumstances can put women at a disadvantage in their careers compared to men and fathers and we call it the maternal wall.
And I think it’s really being cognizant of the fact that this is there; this is a real issue faced by so many women out there. You see also the concrete ceiling that many of your listeners will have also had and that was a term coined by Jasmine Barbers. And she describes this as being the significant kind of feeling that’s there, the tough hurdle for women of colour when they’re trying to reach and elevate their careers to the higher levels in the organisation.
And I think we need to be really aware of these because they are real and it’s about acknowledging these barriers and these hurdles and then being able to plan effectively and strategically to help navigate through them, but also put various support out for these women as well to help them. I think there’s a positive aspect to the pandemic that there’s so many organisations, they’ve realised that work can be done more flexibly and remotely.
Some, incredible women have created their own online businesses during these times. But I think there is a bigger challenge here to help women that careers or job opportunities had really been adversely affected during the pandemic for the reasons that I’ve just spoken about and really helping to bring them back into employment, helping to empower them and design ways in which they can be supported, they can be trained or they can have opportunities that really allows them to really be able to fulfil that part of their life too.
Thank you very much. I hope that the flexibility that has come from the pandemic does allow more women to participate in the workforce, that would be a real positive to come out of it.
10. Rhonda, do you think that women of colour feel they can’t easily call out bias or inequality that they may be experiencing? And what can employees do to challenge their employers on this and start to feel comfortable in raising their concerns from the bottom up?
(23:24) Yes, this is again, an important question and a part of it, I believe, ties to what Simi just shared with us in terms of authenticity. I think a part of it is for the leader to get confident in who they are and what they stand for, what they value, what’s important for them. There was a quote attributed Alexander Hamilton, and it says, “If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything.” And so, when I’m coaching leaders, I first want them to get clear and to embrace who they are and being able to use that authentic voice. And once you are there, then you can begin to bring that voice into the workplace, into the conversation, particularly when there are situations where you feel like there has been bias or inequities.
Now, that’s a challenging place to go. And I was in clubhouse the other day and we were having a conversation around a similar topic. There were many, many different perspectives, as you can imagine, but there were many in the room who felt they could not speak up because they felt hindered by several reasons. First and foremost, we tend to think about the extreme of losing your job but it’s not always that overt. There are sometimes many more subtleties that needed to be dealt with such as maybe women don’t want to speak up because they are fearful that it might impact the raise that they’re due to receive, or that promotion that they’re going for. They’re looking for advancement and they don’t want to be seen as the troublemaker who is causing disruption in the workplace.
So, there are many reasons why women of colour may not want to speak up when there are these times of inequity. The coaching, of course, around this is to find your voice and to really get comfortable with yourself. This is a place where I go with emotional intelligence and that being a passion of mine, I use emotional intelligence a lot to help leaders begin to move forward with some of these more uncomfortable types of conversations. And the first thing that I ask of them is to get comfortable with what they’re feeling and to understand what they’re feeling because the more you are understanding what you’re feeling and thinking and where that is coming from, you can then bring that forward into a conversation in a way that’s productive. And we want to make sure that as we’re sharing our thoughts and feelings, that is not just an emotional dump or burst because those types of outbursts can cause us to not be heard. And when speaking on such an important topic, we absolutely need our voices to be heard. So, to do that and bring that forward in a way that is productive is very important.
This is also where representation matters. When you feel that you are well-represented in the organisation, you are more likely to come forward. One of the things though that organisations can do, because again, I believe this is a partnership. And in order to be comfortable speaking about biases or inequities, the organisation must have built trust. And trust is not given, it is earned, and it’s earned over time. And so, this is something leaders need to be consistent with. They need to be steadfast in their commitment of building trust with all their team members, which will allow these conversations to take place.
And then the second opportunity for organisational leaders is to step forward and ask the questions, become curious again. Back to what Simi referenced earlier, be curious about the environment that you’re creating. Don’t always let the individual have to come forward. If you’re opening up that space, if you’re opening up these conversations, if you’ve built that trust, you are more likely to get valuable information that can help the organisation to grow and help the individual feel more confident and comfortable that they are working for the right organisation that values them for their diversity and everything they bring to the table.
11. Rhonda, how important is sponsorship in helping women of colour progress in their careers and how can those that are listening to this podcast go about seeking out sponsorship?
(27:58) I think sponsorship is critical and important for women of colour, especially when you may not feel like there’s adequate representation. However, it is important for every individual leader to know that your sponsor doesn’t have to look like you. Your sponsor just simply needs to be someone who values you, who respects you, who believes in you and is willing to be your champion. And so that means that they are willing to advocate for you, they are willing to speak and lift your voice both when you are in the room and when you’re not.
Most women have experienced being in a room or a meeting and making a statement only for it to get very little reaction. And then several minutes later, a male counterpart will make the same statement and suddenly people seem to hear that differently. Well, for sponsors, what that means is lifting that voice and saying, “Oh, Rhonda just made that statement a minute ago. So, it’s great to see that you agree with her”; or, “You know what, it’s so great to see our team come together. Rhonda made that same statement”; and somehow lifting that voice, again, often even when you are not in the room, because there are many conversations that are happening about you, without you. And if that is the case, that sponsor can be the person singing your praises and making sure that others are aware of the contribution, understand some of your successes and why you are a person that they should be advocating for.
There’s another side, though, to sponsorship and that is also being willing to give feedback to the person that you are sponsoring. And if, for instance, they are not showing up in their full authentic self, if they are showing up with behaviours that could damage what you might see in them, which is their potential. But if they’re showing up with behaviours that are holding them back, being able to say so. So, creating this safe space for this honest conversation so that they can deliver a better work product, they can be more comfortable showing up as themselves and feel confident that they have a sponsor, a champion and an advocate who’s willing to help them get better and to show up better.
12. Simi, what role do allies at work play in helping women of colour and how can our listeners be an ally in the workplace?
(30:47) Great question again, Jon. An ally is someone who proactively offers help and support to help you achieve your goals. And, an ally is beyond just being a friend for you at work. They are someone that is going to have or create the opportunity for you to have open conversations with them. You can use them as a sounding board, seek advice from them and you’ll know that they have your best interests at heart.
And similar to what Rhonda said, when you’re not in the room, they also will be there to promote your work to others and promote the value that you can offer when you’re not even in the room. So that’s hugely important and adding onto what Rhonda said earlier, if you work in a male-dominated environment, it’s also recommended that you have a few male allies that you can trust to really boost your progression as well.
And these male allies should really recognise that is their privilege within your workplace and industry, and that they are at this area of position of privilege, and genuinely be committed to helping you succeed as well. So, it goes to the point that you don’t need to have someone that looks like you and sounds like you or is the same gender as you. Absolutely not, it’s someone that really values your unique gifts and recognises and acknowledges the work that you do.
And I think part of that is also being really open about sharing that you are looking for allies, that you are looking for people to really kind of take you and support you on this journey because you are absolutely ready to take your career to the next level, or put yourself forward for the next promotion. So, I think not shying away from those conversations or asking an individual to fulfil, some of that opportunity, responsibility, and role, which is important as well.
(Rhonda – 32:57) Simi, I love what you just said. One of the challenges I think for women in general, and particularly for women of colour is we are not always used to asking for help. And you just said that we need to step forward and say, “Hey, I’m looking for allies and sponsors”. And being able to get to say to someone, “I would love your help with this. Here’s my goal and here’s what I see. Here’s why I think you would be amazing as a partner for me in this”. And being able to have those conversations can sometimes be challenging. So, one of the challenges out there for all the women of colour leaders out there is are you asking for help and how are you asking for help? And are you doing that in a way that helps you become more successful?
Thank you, Rhonda and, Simi. And before I move on to the last question, I just want to thank you both for sharing your expert insights and advice and for sharing your experiences as well because they are incredibly valuable. So, thank you both.
13. For this last question I’m going to ask it to both of you if that’s okay. So, we’ll start with you, Simi. What is the one piece of careers advice that you would give to our listeners today?
(34:13) I think it’s one piece of advice I would have been given early in my career would be that being able to be open to broadening your network, creating new connections and making them as diverse as possible is really important because you don’t know how those connections and those relationships are going to unfold during your career and those individuals’ careers as well.
So, I think if you can start to do that from an early position in your career, it’s a fantastic way of building relationships and having diverse network around you and being able to really gain and understand things of others that are not similar to yourself. And going back to that point of curiosity, to be able to really learn from others and be able to celebrate that difference. And at the same time, like I said, you just don’t know where or what will happen with those connections or those relationships as yours and those individuals’ journeys unfold.
14. And Rhonda, may I ask the same question of you. If you had one piece of careers advice to share with our listeners today, what would that be?
(35:32) Really great question. I love ending on this question and I would say, one recommendation would be to be intentional, to truly think through what you were doing, where you’re going, why you’re going there, what you want.
And so, the intention then helps you carve a path forward. If I consciously decide that my goal and my aim is the C-suite. Once I have my eyes set on that target, everything else along the way is simply one more step on the journey. I may have some hurdles to overcome, I may have to go through them under them, around them, however I get past them, but I have my goal. I know that I’m aiming for the C-suite, whether it’s at this company I am at today or another company, I know where I’m going.
That type of intentionality I find helps people feel more joyful about their journey because they know where they’re going, they know that everything else is just a part of the process. And so, the recommendation I would have, and one piece of advice I would give is to be intentional.
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Data suggests that women have been disproportionately impacted by the pandemic in terms of redundancy and the amount of time they are committing to domestic and educational responsibilities. But there are also some emerging employment trends that could open up new and exciting opportunities for women.
The pandemic has caused many employers to challenge their assumptions about work and how/where/when it is conducted. This heralds a new era of flexibility which women can benefit from. Women are also well positioned to take advantage of changing consumer habits, and use the crisis as an opportunity for career adaptation or reinvention. To make the most of these opportunities we need to continue to invest in our learning and to upskill.
Now is a good time to #choosetochallenge the next chapter of our career story and to find work we love that enables us to use our skills, resources and experiences in new ways.
For the past 12 months there has been a significant focus on the particular challenges faced by women during the COVID-19 crisis. For example, research indicates a higher unemployment risk for women as a result of the pandemic, plus unequal shares of household and domestic chores, including home schooling. The UN has also indicated that the pandemic could herald a massive step backwards in the quest for gender equality.
However, among these statistics, there are also some new opportunities emerging. They are arising as a result of the accelerated changes we are seeing in the way work is structured and done. If we are willing to think differently, to keep learning and to #choosetochallenge, then we may be able to find a silver lining… a chance to rewrite the next chapter of our career story.
Opportunity one: increased employer flexibility
The pandemic has necessitated a huge social experiment of mass remote working in many occupations – and most organisations now plan to move into a hybrid model where people work some of the time in an office/facility and some working remotely. As well as flexibility of location, the pandemic has prompted many organisations to be flexible about working hours as their employees juggle additional demands such as childcare or home schooling. According to Gartner, this flexibility of working hours is a trend that will grow as employers start to focus on output (delivery of agreed tasks) rather than input (being present for an agreed number of hours).
These changes are hugely significant for the whole working population, and for working women in particular. Many women have felt limited by the demands of traditional working hours and office locations – working patterns that just don’t fit their lives. As a result, lots of women consciously limit their career progression in order to create space for other things. For some women this creates space for caring and domestic responsibilities, meanwhile, for other women the flexibility gives them the time and space to satisfy other interests, or to help them to continue working whilst managing a chronic health issue.
The increased appetite for flexibility from employers means that new working opportunities are emerging, giving more women the chance of enjoying satisfying careers and balancing this with other demands or interests – helping to close the gender pay gap on the way. Such changes do not only benefit workers looking for more flexibility, but they also benefit organisations who can use more flexible contracts as a way of attracting, engaging and retaining a wider group of talented women into their workforce – people who would not be attracted by traditional working patterns.
If you’re interested in finding flexible opportunities, then it’s helpful to think what model of working you would really like. What benefits would it bring to you? What benefits would it bring to your employer? How could you start a conversation about making changes with your current role? How can you talk with prospective employers about more flexible ways of working? Each country is likely to have its own legal requirements and advice centres, so check it out and take steps to get the flexibility that will work for you!
Opportunity two: changing consumer habits
There is no doubt that the pandemic has shifted consumer habits. Many people no longer queue for their daily Americano, but as this has declined, the demand for quality in-home coffee equipment has increased. In many parts of the world, gyms are no longer open, which has opened new markets for online fitness instructors, now able to offer their services globally instead of just locally. We’ve seen lots of other innovations, as top restaurants offer menus and ingredients for people to cook at home, and anyone can join online cookery courses from around the world. With these changing habits come new opportunities.
Women have a strong history of entrepreneurship and innovation, particularly in the service and social space. Women starting their own business often work solo (sometimes called ‘solopreneurs’) and typically avoid taking on debt, so start-up costs are often kept to a minimum. Many women entrepreneurs have found ways to pivot or shift their existing business to make it more relevant. Others have been able to open in new markets as time zones and geography become less relevant to how a service is delivered. There has also been a rise in subscription services, with everything from crafting to beauty packs available, and many of these are new offerings as women identify things they miss, things they’re passionate about, and use these as springboards to shape new business opportunities.
Do you have an idea for a business? Do you want to give something a go? You may want to fully embrace something new or you may want to have it as a ‘side hustle’ to see how it goes. Want some inspiring stories of businesses that have adapted or started? Here are some of my favourites:
Tami Garcia – connecting cultural ambassadors to families worldwide
A crisis has often been used by businesses, government and individuals as a trigger for reinvention or adaptation. As the saying goes, ‘never waste a good crisis’. Psychologically, a crisis is a powerful thing – it is a period of turmoil and upheaval when things we took for granted are challenged, when our assumption about normality is turned on its head. For some, this crisis is immediate.
Many women have been made redundant from the hospitality or leisure sector, as such they have needed to quickly reinvent their careers to keep their financial independence. Other women have experienced loss, illness or grief in new ways and have started asking questions about their purpose in life and what they really want to do. Consequently, there has been a significant increase in people applying for training in roles like nursing. Others have realised that they’re bored or unsatisfied in their job; they’ve got in a rut and no longer find it stimulating, they are desperate for change. I’ve also heard of women who have so enjoyed a new craft or hobby that they want to make a career from it – and also from some who have found home schooling so fulfilling that they have decided they want to change careers and move into education (and I’ve also heard lots of women saying they used to like the idea of being a teacher but now realise it’s not for them!).
Reinvention may be radical in nature – a complete change in career and direction. However, it could also be an ‘adaptation’, taking your existing skills and applying them to a new role, perhaps a sideways move, a change to a different function or secondment to a particular project. These changes can feel a bit scary, but they can also be stimulating and energising, helping us to re-engage with our work.
If you feel at a cross-roads and want (or need) to explore a ‘reinvention’ or an ‘adaptation’, then it’s worth getting some support. You may already know what you want to do differently, but for many people deciding what they want to do is one of the hardest things ever. If you’re looking for a smaller change, then talk to your manager or a recruiter; see what opportunities there might be. It’s also helpful to talk to people in your network – see what help, support and guidance they can offer.
For more radical changes, there is support and advice out there. Governments often have National Careers Services, and there are lots of helpful articles online. If you have the funds, you can talk with a career coach who can help you to navigate the sometimes overwhelming question, “What do I want to do?”
One key piece of advice for potential reinventors is to ‘try before you buy’. You may dream of a different role, but you need to check out that any investment (in training, networking, securing a role, etc.) will pay off – that your reinvention is one that you will be happy with.
To harness these exciting career opportunities, we need to step back and think about ourselves. We need to think about our skills, experiences and motivations. We need to be willing to take some control, to shape our futures and to put ourselves in challenging, new situations. We need to invest in developing ourselves and upskilling. We need to build and use our network to support our career. In a word, we need to invest in our ‘employAgility’.
So, amidst the negativity about the impact of COVID-19 on women’s careers, I hope that I’ve given you some pause for thought. How do you feel about your work? What do you want from the next phase of your working life? If you’re already happy, then that’s fantastic! If things aren’t where you want them to be, then perhaps now is the right time to #choosetochallenge yourself on what you want from the next chapter of your working life.
Perhaps now is the time to reflect on your immense skills, knowledge and experience and to repackage them in a way that enables you to do work that you love. Perhaps now is an opportunity to take control and make the most of increased flexibility, changing consumer habits and the new horizons of reinvention. Perhaps you can create your own silver lining.
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As leaders continue to drive their organisations through a great deal of uncertainty and constant change, many of their team members may be experiencing a dip in self-confidence.
So, today we’re joined by self-confidence coach, Jo Emerson, who’s here to share her expert advice to help leaders build self-confidence in their teams.
1. Please could I ask you to introduce yourself to our listeners?
(00:50) Yes, sure. So, my name’s Jo Emerson. I’ve been working as a coach for the last decade and I specialised in confidence, right from the beginning of this career and about three years into working as a coach, I was asked by a business I was working with – I was doing some confidence training with some of their team members – to do some leadership development work and this other arm to my business grew.
And so, for the last seven years, I’ve worked with leaders for them to lead effective, robust, and agile teams. So, it’s a side of my work that I wasn’t expecting but I absolutely love building teams and leaders, because if your leader and your team’s confident, the business is only really going to grow. It’s exciting work.
2. What are some of the main challenges your clients are facing now?
(01:54) Yes, so this is an incredibly challenging time. Possibly the most challenging time, I think any of us of my generation and younger have experienced. I think the main challenges would be, firstly, double hatting. I think that because there’s had to be a lot of people made redundant or go on furlough, people who are still working in businesses are often doing more work or are expected to take a more global responsibility than maybe they were before. And so, double hatting, the challenges of time management and maybe understanding an arm of the business that you maybe weren’t responsible for before, in detail, is a big challenge for people.
I think also keeping teams engaged. Leaders have got a real challenge on their hands now, of keeping people, who are working from home or under different circumstances, engaged and motivated under those circumstances. Managing uncertainty is a massive challenge for everyone now and often we’ll look to our leaders, for a steer when we’re feeling uncertain and afraid. So, it’s the job of a leader to manage uncertainty.
And I think managing volume of work, similarly to what I was saying at the beginning about double-hatting, a lot of the businesses I’m working with have got very busy in a different way to how they were used to working, or they’ve got less people doing the same volume of work in order for the businesses to stay afloat. And so, managing volume is another big challenge now. So, probably those would be the four things, I’d say that I’m encountering most, now.
3. Of course, leaders need to build self-confidence in their teams, to help them thrive in their roles. Firstly, could I ask you to explain exactly what you mean by self-confidence?
(03:48) So, I thought about this question in terms of being a leader. Self-confidence is, in a nutshell, trusting yourself. It’s the belief that you can cope and thrive with what life brings you. I also think self-confidence is not about thinking you’re better than others; it’s not about thinking you’re worse than others. It’s about being part of a unified whole. So, not playing big, not playing small, being right sized as part of a team.
So, that’s really what I’m talking about when it comes to being a confident leader. It’s belief that you can and will find a way to cope and belief that you are an important part of a whole.
When it comes to leadership, that’s what I’m talking about, when it comes to self-confidence.
4. Thank you for that definition. And why do you think self-confidence is so important to the success of an individual, a team, and ultimately a wider organisation?
(04:44) If self-confidence is about trust – trust that you’ll cope, that you will find a way. And if it’s about being part of a whole – then suddenly, it becomes really clear why it’s so important. You cannot be resilient unless you’ve got a core of trust in yourself, of self-confidence, knowing that something’s changed, but you’ll find a way.
I think as a world, as a country, we showed enormous amounts of resilience back in March 2020, when suddenly everything changed. It was quite beautiful, to watch the rallying and the innovation and the way in which we all were all-hands-on-deck, changed how we were working, to survive.
I think confidence is also important for individuals, teams, and businesses, because otherwise, how can you innovate? If you’re not willing to take a risk, if you don’t trust that if you fail, you’ll find a way to do it better next time, you won’t ever take a risk. You won’t ever innovate. And yet businesses only thrive when they’re innovating.
So, it’s important. That trust in yourself that, you’ll find a way, is so important. It’s that trust that, “Oh, let’s just have a go. And if that doesn’t work, we’ll find another way, we’ll have enough evidence of what doesn’t work to point out what does”. And, I think there’s something about keeping each other going and if we lack self-confidence, we get so lost in our own heads, in our own little stories about things, that we stop thinking about others and looking up and being part of a team.
I think, if you’re self-confident, if you’ve got a level of confidence, you also want everyone else to feel okay about themselves. That’s so important for businesses now, that we are looking out for each other and checking in on our team members. So, self-confidence, trust in self, trust in the ability to fail and pick yourself up and the sub-competencies that sit behind resilience, they’re all vital and vital all the time now.
We’ve already touched on how you think the COVID-19 pandemic has affected self-confidence in employees, but I’d like to dive a little bit deeper.
5. How exactly do you think shifts in employee self-confidence will become more significant in the future world of work?
(07:07) So, I think a lot of what’s happened to people during the pandemic has been taking stock. I’m not talking about people, who’ve lost their jobs and lost their livelihoods; that’s different and I completely understand that. But a lot of my clients and my leaders are taking stock and thinking how I’ve been living, how I want to be living going forwards? Suddenly, pulling back from the crazy commute, meetings, constant in and out of rooms with different people and all of that, has caused people when that stopped to think “Gosh, do I prefer a slower, gentler pace of life?” So, that’s not necessarily a confidence piece, that’s more specifically, to have the confidence to think, is this what I want? Or how do I want to approach my life going forwards? These are questions people are asking themselves.
Probably in the future, what we are going to be facing, there is a fear around a lack of opportunity because, it’s likely we’re going to go into some recession. I graduated in a recession, back in the nineties and it’s a tricky time. There are always opportunities, but we’d have to be innovative and creative in the ways we find them. I think some people will be, because they’ve lost a job recently, they may have got another one and they’re going to be in fear about: Could I lose this job? I don’t want to go through that again. But actually, what I want to say in answer to this question is, I hope in future, we take the lessons from the pandemic and use them to understand how important innovation is and how, when we get set in our ways and we fear change, we lose our confidence.
The world is always changing. We must be flexible, agile, and able to change. And if we, as workers, leaders, team members and business owners understand that, that it’s always about change, it’s always about flacks, then actually COVID will have taught us a great lesson and will help us innovate in the future, which I think can only be a good thing.
Yes, I think we’ve all felt the need to be a bit more flexible and agile this year. And hopefully, that will benefit us all in the future, as you say.
6. Shifting gears slightly, what are some of the key signs and behaviours for leaders to look out for, which can signal that a member of their team has high self-confidence?
(09:44) So, if someone’s got high self-confidence, probably the first thing you’ll notice, is they look you in the eye. They can have an eye-to-eye conversation with you. They’re not looking down or away all the time but they are happy because they feel okay about who they are, and they trust themselves, they trust in the process of life and they trust you as a leader; they’ll look you in the eye.
Secondly, someone with high confidence tells the truth; isn’t afraid to tell the truth. In lots of businesses with truths hidden, businesses suffer as a result. Against them for with high self-confidence, will know that it’s okay to admit their mistakes. They’re happy to go, “Gosh, I really screwed up there and I need help to make it better, but I will make it better and I won’t do that again in future”, that’s someone with confidence saying that. As well, someone with confidence wants other people to do well.
We were seeing this, weren’t we, at the inauguration recently? The females who were on that stage are women who wanted to bring others up with them (and the men), they want others to do well, as well as them. They don’t want solitary glory, but they want this to be a unified thing. And I also think someone with high confidence listens. I think is a real sign. If you can listen, properly, without preparing your answer, just listen. That’s a confident person.
7. Is there a fine line between confidence and overconfidence in the workplace?
(11:13) Yes, there is a fine line and I think, it’s all to do with ego. A person who is genuinely confident, has their ego in check. They don’t think they’re better than anyone else, they don’t think they’re worse than anyone else and they understand that they are an important part of a unified whole. That’s a confident person.
Arrogance or overconfidence, as you just called it; those people make everything about them. It’s all about their own glory. And then similarly, people with low confidence, make everything about them, because it’s all about what people think of me. How they’re not enough; are people approving of me?
Real confidence sits in the middle of those two and understands that it plays an important part, but in a whole. And so, the focus is about the whole, not about the little self. So yes, there is a fine line and it’s about ego management.
8. How can a leader identify whether a member of their team is lacking or struggling with their self-confidence?
(12:22) So, we go back to the ‘eye-looking’ thing. If someone can’t look you in the eye, it’s often that they are feeling that they’re not good enough. So, that’s a big thing to look out for. Someone who struggles to speak in meetings. Not someone who sits back and is a reflector and will speak more confidently at the end, I don’t mean them. I mean, someone who you’ve literally got to drag an opinion out of them; that’s going to be someone who is too afraid to have an opinion, in case their opinion isn’t received well and then, they think people aren’t going to like them and then, they go into this catastrophise-thing, headspace of ‘I’m going to lose my job’, et cetera, ‘because I’ve had an opinion’.
So, someone who’s afraid to speak in meetings, someone who checks other opinions before they have their own. I’d be worried there about their confidence. Often, someone who overworks, someone who’s putting stupid amount of hours in, that’s often a sign of a lack of confidence because they think, “Oh, I probably haven’t done it right – I better go and do it again”. And often people who won’t rock the boat; won’t speak up when they think something’s off or not working as well as it could.
And that’s often a lack of confidence. It takes a confident person to say to their leader, “We’re doing this wrong. We could be doing this better”. That takes some confidence to do that, but that person has got the interest of the business at the forefront of their mind. That’s confidence. So, people who are afraid to rock the boat, they probably need some help with their confidence.
9. Do you think that there are any common behaviours, habits, or even language that you see from leaders, which may be negatively impacting the self-confidence of their teams, maybe without them even realising it?
(14:09) Yes, I do. Not being willing to hear the truth is a massive problem. There are leaders who will say yes, my door is always open, come and tell me anything and you go and tell them the truth, but they don’t like it and they’re quite verbal about not liking it.
Unless you’re willing to hear the truth, don’t say you want to hear the truth. And the thing is, if you’re not willing to hear the truth, you’re saying to people that their opinions don’t matter, and that’s not cool for confidence. So, always be willing to hear the truth. It doesn’t mean that you must go and act on that truth as a leader. If you think you know better or different, or there’s information that the person who’s bought you this nugget of truth, isn’t party to, but you must be willing to hear the truth. Not being willing to be vulnerable, not being willing to be real, creates fear in teams.
A leader who is willing to own their mistakes, to be vulnerable, to say, “Gosh, I’m worried about my Mum or my daughter had XYZ that happened in the playground, I found that difficult”. A leader is willing to be a little bit vulnerable about who they are; they build trust within their teams. And so, someone who’s not willing to be vulnerable, is a behaviour that I think can be unhealthy. Ruling through fear is a complete no-no in my book. If you want to build a thriving team, don’t use fear as your stick. Don’t use fear as your shield. It’s not going to work.
Playing people and team members off against each other, creating an environment of one-upmanship, is a bad behaviour and it will come back to bite you. And I think as well, leaders who try and be everyone’s friend, blur the line between friendship and leadership. As a leader, a bit like as a parent, you can be obviously friendly and loving and all the rest of it, but the buck must stop with you, as the leader.
And sometimes, as a leader, if you’ve become best mates with everyone on your team, it’s almost impossible then to have to discipline someone or tell someone that unfortunately, what they’ve done that means they’re going to lose their job or that you’re making a decision that’s unpopular. It becomes almost impossible to do that. So, there must be a boundary and I’m not saying don’t be friendly. I’m saying you can’t be best mates with your team members if you’re a leader. You’ve got to keep a boundary there. So, those are some of the behaviours I’d be watching out for.
That’s interesting. So, creating an environment of honesty, of effective listening, but also, with effective boundaries put in place, can foster that.
10. How important is feeling that you are learning and progressing to self-confidence? What role can leaders play in facilitating that and helping their people develop a growth mindset?
(17:10) So, I think it’s important. Everyone wants to feel that they are moving forward in their lives and that doesn’t necessarily have to be on specific job skills. That could be on softer skills, some first aid training or taking responsibility for the more practical side of the business, being a keyholder at weekends. I know that sounds silly but any additional responsibility or skillset or training.
Everything’s about expansion; the world and the universe are expanding. Quantum physics is telling us that the human experience is to grow, change, and evolve. So, it’s important that it doesn’t necessarily, like I say, must be on, getting better at your specific job. It could be soft skills: training or some leadership or some management, anything. And I think the reason it’s important is because:
It stretches people out of their comfort zones. They get used to change, growth and used to having a go.
It also allows people to fail. And, I talked at the top of the show about how important it is to fail and learn from that and for that to be okay. If you delegate stuff to your teams and let them make a bit of a mistake and learn from it because that stretches people.
I think, as well, ask people how they’d like to grow. We can assume as leaders that we know what people need, or there might be a set career path that we assume that these people might want to be on, but it might be that, actually, they’ve decided they want to do something else within the business. So, ask people.
And I think as well, rewarding people. We learn and progress, but we need to be rewarded for that. And sometimes, people feel rewarded if they are invested in, with a bit of training or an opinion – ask someone’s opinion, for example. Learning and progression don’t just have to be skilling up. It’s a wider piece, it’s more holistic.
11. I also imagine that experiencing a level of autonomy in their roles will help many employees become more self-confident. Do you have any tips or advice for leaders that you can share on this?
(29:35) Yes, I think it’s really hard to delegate work to people and let them crack on with it, if you are someone who’s done that role before, or it’s crucial to the business, that it’s done in a certain way. It can be tough as leaders to let go.
But in the same way, that if I want my three daughters to take an active role in clearing up the kitchen, after we’ve had our evening meal, I need to leave the kitchen, let them do the dishwasher, wipe the surfaces and sweep the floor. And if they’ve done it well, say “well done”. And if there’s bits they’ve missed, say “Next time, can you put the food from the sink in the actual food bin, please?”, for example.
If I am there, breathing down their necks and saying, “Oh, you didn’t do that; you didn’t do that” or I’m doing it for them, they’re never going to learn to do it. It may be that a glass gets smashed or pot doesn’t get perfectly washed up, the first couple of times, but it’s the only way they’re going to learn. So, autonomy gives people a sense of pride and so many leaders breathe down people’s necks while they’re doing something and honestly, that’s the worst thing.
After you’ve shown someone how to do it, leave them, let them have a go. I think as well, if people do fail, explain to them what’s happened, what’s gone wrong and then, let them fix it. Loads of leaders go, “Oh, it went wrong. So, I just grabbed it off so-and-so and did it myself”. I think that’s the worst thing you can do for self-confidence and for the progression of that person and the business.
So, it’s about being there, being supportive, but letting people crack on themselves. And I get that, that can be difficult as a leader, but it is the only way to grow your business and teams. And ultimately, I suppose this is about succession planning because one of those members of your team might be doing your job one day, because you are progressing up. So, you’ve always got to have your eye on, who’s going to be up and coming into your role. So, it really is about letting go, as much as that’s hard.
12. Is there anything else that leaders can be doing differently to further build confidence in their team, particularly as most of us continue to operate in either a remote or hybrid working world?
(22:02) So, if you’ve told someone they’ve done a good job and you have done something to acknowledge that, that will automatically build confidence. Praise is so underestimated and it’s so valuable, but there are ways to praise people and not everyone likes to be praised in the same way.
So, for example, public recognition for an extrovert is a wonderful reward. But if you were to give that to an introvert, they might think you’re attacking them. So, know your audience, know who you are rewarding. Certainly, being in the world of work, one of the best rewards I ever used to get given, was some surprise time off. You know if our boss said, “Look, it’s three o’clock, on Friday, go home early”, that was like a joy that I felt. So, “You all worked really hard this week, take a couple of extra hours off”. That felt like more reward than money.
Some people would disagree with me on that but giving people some extra time off or flexibility. Money is a great reward, obviously, but giving people a promotion, investing in them. We’ve just been talking, haven’t we, about increasing people’s skills? If you show a member of staff that you really value them, by investing in them, going on a course or giving them a piece of coaching or buying them a book, for example, because they’ve mentioned that this particular part of their job, they’d like to get better at; that says to someone, I value you.
And I think as well before COVID, we used to often go off and grab a member of our team and take them off for lunch. And we can’t do that now, but it doesn’t mean you can’t, as a leader say, “I’m having my sandwich at 12:30pm on Friday. Can you have yours then, as well and we’ll have a little Zoom?”, and just chat about that person’s week. Not them at work, but how it’s going with the kids and how their mum and dad are and their COVID-life outside of work. Those things speak value – they speak of how much you value someone; you know?
As a leader in a team, we are there to enhance the sense of self, our team members have. And we can do that in more ways, than just giving people more money or just giving them a promotion. Spending time with people, listening, acknowledging their hard work in other ways, all adds to the self-confidence pod.
Yes. I especially second your point about surprise time off, I always think it’s a really nice way to recognise how hard people have been working.
13. I’d also imagine that regular feedback and check-ins are quite key to this?
(24:54) Definitely, yes. Letting people know what you expect of them and letting them know how well they’re doing and also offering support to enable them to stretch and then getting them to say the same of you; what are your expectations of me, as a leader? How am I meeting them? What do you need from me? Is there anything you did need in that situation, that I wasn’t able to give? That open dialogue is important.
14. Do you think that ‘imposter syndrome’, which, for our listeners here who aren’t familiar with this term, is when an individual doubts their skills, talents, or accomplishments, as fear of being seen as a fraud, is playing a part in employees lacking confidence?
(25:44) All the time. In my work with executives, I am dealing with imposter syndrome daily. Everyone has a dose of imposter syndrome. Maybe Richard Branson doesn’t, but most people in this world, have some imposter syndrome. And the biggest fix to imposter syndrome, is talking about it in a group because when one person admits it – I’ve seen this again and again in my team building sessions – when one person admits it and the whole group goes, “Oh yes, me too”. Then the whole group goes, “Oh, well, I think you’re brilliant. Well, if you’re brilliant and you have imposter syndrome, maybe that challenges my imposter syndrome”.
And they may say, “Why would you have imposter syndrome? You’re amazing at your job”. And that’s that identification and that sharing of truth, being vulnerable, smashes through imposter syndrome, better than any coaching session I can give individuals on a one-to-one basis, it’s amazing.
The power of the group, to be honest about it, is key. So, as a leader, if you can encourage people as a group, to talk about imposter syndrome and you’ll often have to go first yourself, and you might say, “Gosh, when I was 25 and I had my first job and I just felt like I shouldn’t be there”. Members of your team are looking at each other, thinking, I feel like that. Our boss used to feel that. That’s amazing. Encourage a conversation about it. You will see massive improvements with it.
And I think as well, providing situations to prove that imposter syndrome wrong, is also great. So, stretching team members in order that they can prove that what the imposter is saying to them, is a lie. So, give them chances to do better at their job, challenge themselves, have a go at something that’s difficult and do maybe 80% of it and learn the 20% they need. All of these proved that imposter wrong, in the same way that if they don’t stretch themselves and they just stick with the status quo, they’re proven the imposter right. So, this is about vulnerability, being honest and providing opportunities for a new narrative to grow because imposters are everywhere, but they’re all liars.
15. How else can leader’s role model self-confidence for their teams?
(28:10) I think the most important thing a leader brings to a team, in terms of soft skills, is authenticity. Being real, honest, open, and a human being, is so important at work. People respond to that. If they feel that they trust that you are real, that you’re open, people will do the same with you. They will trust you. It’s the only way to trust, is to be real.
It’s important that leaders contain the teams with a vision and a well-communicated vision. So, even if the vision must change, often they do, the communication is key. So, a great leader thinks very clearly: Where are we going? Where is North? Tells their team, where North is and what their role is, in getting to North. And that contains people. They feel safe within that, “Right, okay. I know what’s expected of me. I know where we’re going”. And then, if halfway there, the leader goes, “Oh, okay. The business has changed; North has changed”. And you communicate that and go through the same process, people will shift. What they can’t shift with, is sands shifting and no one’s telling them why or no one’s even acknowledging that the sands are shifting. Shifting sands are okay if they’re acknowledged.
I think as well, leaders, you’ve got two ears and one mouth; use them in proportion. Listen – active listening is so important. Not being afraid of change, we’ve touched on this before; it’s key. Change needs to be the suit that you’re swimming in and people just need to get okay with, “Oh right. We’re swimming in a sea of change” – almost to expect change and then it’s not a scary thing.
I’ve made a note about this, when I was thinking about these questions, before we recorded and I think what’s important increasingly, is for leaders to model self-care. So, to actually take time to be with their children or go off at lunchtime and have a run or meditate or buy yourself a decent sandwich and sit quietly by yourself for twenty minutes or to say, “No, I won’t be in work on Friday because it’s my wife’s birthday”, and to take holiday and not be answering emails on holiday.
Modelling the value of self, says to team members, Oh, yes, this is a person and they value themselves. It would be okay for me to take a lunch break. It would be okay for me to say, “Can I have Friday afternoon off please because I want to take my husband out for dinner” or “It’s my Mum’s 60th birthday and we want to travel to her, for the weekend”.
Like modelling self-care, modelling a work-life balance or a ‘life balance’ is very important, because it says very clearly to your team, “We’re human beings, first; we’re human doings, second”. So, those would be the things that I would suggest.
Thank you, that’s a very interesting point about self-care. I think some leaders can think that they must be ‘always on’, but of course it would be detrimental both to their own work and as you say, also to their team in the future.
(31:30) Correct. Huge; it’s a huge point: self-care. Massive.
16. And could it be beneficial in the long-term, for leaders to let their teams experience failure, to enhance self-confidence?
(31:42) How will you ever innovate, if you’ve never failed? Literally, how will anyone ever innovate, without failure? We must, as a culture, maybe as a world, reframe failure. It’s part of how we grow as people, how we change and how we come up with new ideas.
I fear that we are so afraid of change in our culture, so desperate to stick to the status quo and it kills innovation and businesses. And the businesses, that if you just look at the High Street, for example, now, and obviously it’s been awful, but the businesses that have not innovated over the last ten years, are the ones that have now suffered and we’re not seeing them on the High Street anymore. And it’s a real example. But did they get it right perfectly first time then? Of course, they didn’t. They would have gone through loads of failure to get to where they are.
So yes, we must be okay with failure because it’s how we change. It’s how we grow; it’s how we build resilience; it’s how we build self-confidence; it’s how we grow our businesses. It’s not saying, I’m all for failure. I’m saying, I’m all for failure, if we can see it as a stepping stone to success. There are always lessons that we can take from failure. If we’re clever, humble and mindful, they will lead us to something better.
17. If a leader is welcoming a new team member, how do you think that they can ensure the onboarding process helps the employee feel as confident as possible, whether they’re onboarding in person or remotely?
(33:38) Well now it’s mostly remote, isn’t it? Well, I suppose in the office environment, maybe in other environments, it’s more face-to-face. Onboarding someone, essentially, is all about relationships. When someone comes into a company, they need to know that there are a handful of people they have got a level of trust or understanding with, they could go to, with a question or problem or for a piece of advice, or to just sit and have their sandwich with, whether that’s on Zoom or whether it’s in the canteen.
And so, as a leader, I think it’s really important that you spend time with the person who’s just joined your company, you build that relationship and maybe get them a buddy or two, people who are responsible for taking you for lunch, introducing them to other people, et cetera. Culturally onboarding them into the ways and the nooks and crannies of how the business runs.
And obviously, then plugging that person in, on a relationship basis to the people there’ll be most closely working with and encouraging those people to have conversations, that are not just about work, but outside of work as well. We’ve talked a lot in this podcast about what’s their favourite food and how many kids they’ve got and who their granny is. And that stuff’s important; these are people. So, I think when someone’s onboarding, as a leader we have to think of who the key people are they’d need to have relationships with and how can I facilitate time and space for that to happen.
Thanks, Jo. I think you’ve given our listeners a lot of food for thought, both about their own careers, but also for supporting their teams.
18. I’d like to finish with a question that we ask all our guests. What do you think are three qualities that make a good leader and crucially, do you think that these qualities have changed because of the pandemic?
(35:34) Okay, three I can do three and I will tell you now, they’re no different now, to what they were before the pandemic. And they’re no different now to how they’ll be after the pandemic. These are perennial long-term leadership qualities. Okay. So, my three I’ve said:
Knows their own strengths and their own weaknesses and owns them. So, I’m talking really about humility and authenticity here. I’m talking about someone who is, “I know I’m good at that. I know I’m not so good at that. I’m going to recruit someone who’s going to help me with my not so good apps. And I’m going to be really open with my team about where I’m good and where I need help”, because that, again, is such a humble, honest, strong position to take, that you will find your teams honour and respect you for it.
A leader must value team, must value unity. It is not about you and your glory but it’s about the team, the business and it’s about the whole. It’s so important to have a unity mindset, not a self-mindset.
And for the third quality, I’ve said that I think is super important, is to have a vision. Communicate that vision and hold people accountable to it.
So, yes, honesty, unity and vision would be my three boss words, but like I said, that’s not an exhaustive list.
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Whilst we continue to navigate our way through constant change and a great deal of uncertainty, many professionals are experiencing a dip in self-confidence. So today, we’re joined by self-confidence coach Jo Emerson, who is here to share her expert advice to help those looking to increase self-confidence in their professional lives.
1. To begin with, could you please introduce yourself to our listeners?
(00:50) My name is Jo Emerson, I’ve been a confidence coach for the last ten years and I had a major career change 10 years ago. I’ve been working as a coach ever since, and I’ve specialised in confidence the entire way through my career. I also do lots of work with teams and leaders. I’m also a mum, that’s probably my most important job. I’ve got three daughters aged sixteen, thirteen, twelve and two stepsons. So, I’m also quite busy in that part of my life. Yes, so, that’s me!
2. Please could you tell us what self-confidence encompasses and why it’s so important to career success?
(01:34) Self-confidence is about trust. The word confidence, its root word is fidere, which means to trust and have faith in. And really self-confidence is about trusting in ourselves, but also trusting in the process of life. I think a lot of us get very worried that life isn’t going to work out exactly the way we’ve planned it, whereas if we do our best and trust that we will learn along the way, life tends to bring opportunities to us. So, self-confidence for me is that sense that if I do my best, it will be okay, and it will work itself out.
I also think self-confidence is a self-validating state, and by that I mean that when we lack confidence, we tend to put our emotional eggs in the basket of other people, constantly looking to them and to the world for approval, verbal strokes and validation.Whereas if we develop self-confidence, we start to validate ourselves, and use our own internal wisdom as a measure for whether we’re on track or not. And of course, this is so important in our careers because as we start work and rise through the ranks, we’re going to be asked to take risks, be resilient and have challenging conversations.
We’re going to be asked our opinion about stuff, and we’re going to have to get given projects and think about what my best wisdom is telling me to get this over the line quickly. especially at the moment, we have to be flexible, adaptable, we have to learn to deal with conflict and confidence sits underneath all of those. So, that’s probably why I ended up specialising in confidence because I thought it’s so important. And I think we think that confidence is this brash arrogant out-there state when really, that’s probably more unconfident behaviour. Real confidence is a peaceful, self-validating, contented state of wisdom and strength.
Thanks Jo, I think it’s important to be talking about confidence, especially now when everyone is experiencing these challenges for the first time or have been since the pandemic began. So, it’s important that we recognise them and challenge them of course.
3. What would you say are the signs that someone might have low self-confidence at work?
(04:00) I think one of the major signs that someone lacks confidence is that they often won’t look you in the eye. I often will spot low self-esteem in someone or lack of confidence if they can’t meet your eye because they’re driven by a sense of ‘ I’m not good enough.’ And again, you’ll find that in people who are very loud and out there, but also people who are very shy. Often, they can’t just be in front of you and have an eye-to-eye conversation. Also, defensive people who find any critique of their work very difficult to take, often the root of that is a lack of self-confidence.
People who are overworking, often, that’s another sign of a low self-confidence, people believing “I must work all the hours in order to keep my job because I’m not good enough”, that core belief of, ‘I’m not good enough.’ People pleasers, people who will do anything for anyone, often they lack confidence. And I don’t mean the good eggs, the people you can rely upon, I mean people who are always overdoing stuff and who are resistant to change. Often that’s a real sign of lack of confidence because of course, if you’re resistant to change it’s because you believe you won’t cope if something changes, and again that’s a lack of self-confidence.
4. You mentioned one of the main signs being someone not being able to look you in the eye. And in the context of the world that we’re in at the moment where we’ve got frequent Zoom and Microsoft Teams calls, I imagine that it’s even harder to identify?
(05:35) Well, it is. It’s interesting because like everyone else, I’ve had to take a lot of my work online and then in the group work I do, you will find a lot of people switching their cameras off. And this is like a group training session or a team-building session. And I have to call those people out and say “Could you put your cameras on? We all need to see you” and they don’t want to be seen.
And yet, you must be seen if you want to build your confidence, one of the first steps is allowing yourself to be seen and to have some face-to-face contact. And if it’s difficult on a screen, it’s even more difficult for people face-to-face. And I think what the pandemic has done, is that it’s pushed us all to the edges of our lives, the edges of our character assets or our character defects if you like, and the people who were shy before, they can hide even more if we let them.
And, we must gently pull people out and say, “I really would love to see your face. I want to engage with you”. It’s hard for people but agreeing with the voice of fear, agreeing with people and going, “Oh no, of course, you can keep your camera off”, I think is the worst thing we can do for people who lack confidence. I think we must make it easy for people to switch their cameras on, but also challenge their need to stay hidden. People absolutely should not be staying hidden, that’s the worst thing for confidence.
5. And if we look at what the main causes of poor self-confidence are, you mentioned in your answer before that people might think that they’re not good enough. What are the main causes of poor self-confidence?
(07:18) So, firstly would be listening to that negative voice in your head and believing what it says. We all have a negative, critical voice, everybody does. Everyone has a negative, critical voice. However, what I have learned, in fact, I wrote my first book on this is, it lies, it’s lying.
It will say, “You can’t possibly apply for that promotion because you’ve only been in the job a year and they’re saying they need fifteen months experience on the job. They’d think you’re really arrogant if you applied for that job and you’ve not got enough experience”. That’s what negativity and fear says that negative voice. But a kinder, wiser voice would say, “Have a go. Why don’t you email HR and say, “I know I’ve only got a year’s experience, but could I possibly throw my hat in the ring, even just for some more interview experience? Can I have a go? I’m interested in progressing my career”.
We’ve all got that negative voice and I call it first thought, second thought. So, faced with any difficult situation, our first thought is usually a negative one, it’s usually that critical voice and we can think, “Okay, thank you for your opinion” and then ask ourselves to plug into a bit of a wiser part of ourselves and ask its opinion. And usually, our second thought is something a little more empowering, a little wiser. So, listening to the negative voice is a big one.
Putting your emotional eggs in other people’s baskets, I mentioned this at the start of the show. So, making other people’s opinions of you more important than your opinion of yourself is a one-way ticket to low self-esteem. And we live in a culture where there’s a lot of this going on. You’ve only got to go on Instagram and see people posting so that they get approval, so they get more likes and feel better about themselves. Actually, self-approving is the thing we should be aiming for.
Trauma in childhood, that can be a massive cause of low self-esteem and low confidence. That needs a specific piece of trauma work with a trauma specialist. So often I’ve had clients in front of me, who’ve been wanting to do one-to-one work on their confidence and then a big traumatic event from childhood’s come up. I will then pause coaching and recommend they go and do a specific piece of trauma work with a therapist and then come back for their coaching, because trauma in childhood can be fixed, but it needs work.
Treating life like a competition. I notice this a lot in my clients that if we treat life as if it’s a competition, we will automatically often lose our confidence because we then tell ourselves everyone else is doing better than us. If we can treat life a bit more like an experience that we do our best in, we stand a better chance of being more confident.
The last thing I wrote down on my list of five, although this is not a complete list, is a lack of balance. Often a life overdone or underdone will be causing low self-esteem and low confidence. When we can have our life in balance by which I mean:
Enough sleep
Good food
Some exercise
Some love in our lives
Even if it’s on Zoom, reaching out to friends
Something creative, such as learning some art or learning salsa online, we can learn everything online these days.
Or going out for a walk
Filling our lives with a range of things alongside work creates confidence. Overdoing work, or overdoing sleep or any of those things can lead to low self-esteem. So, those would be my top five.
6. I imagine over time that continuous self-doubt could potentially snowball and would be damaging to an individual and their long-term self-confidence. Would you agree?
(11:26) I completely agree and it’s a negative, vicious cycle, a negative downward spiral that we can stop at any point. The thing to know about this though is denial is a big game player in this. So often, you feel some low self-esteem, maybe from childhood and you start believing a tape that’s playing in your head, which is your core belief “I’m not good enough.” And then what happens is you act on that belief and in acting on that belief, you end up creating examples in the present to back up that limiting belief, that core belief “I’m not good enough” from the past. So, then you’ve got more evidence for yourself, and then you start making decisions based on all that evidence. And before you know it, you are looking at the world through the lens of I’m not good enough, and everyone’s better than me when that’s not true. It’s just not true and it’s not true of anybody.
And the job of coaching and you can self-coach, is to challenge that and think “Hold on a minute, where did I even pick up this idea that I’m not good enough? That I can’t and other people can?” and start finding ways to challenge that evidence. So, challenge that negative voice in order to stop the vicious circle and start turning it into a positive cycle, a virtuous cycle, where you start believing something different such as “Maybe I am good enough”. And then you start taking actions based on “Maybe I am good enough”, and then you produce evidence that suggests that actually you are good enough, and then you do some more and do some more.
There’s a brilliant book called ‘Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway’, I think it was written in the 1980’s. It’s brilliant for that because it essentially says just challenge the evidence – you’re believing a negative story that says you can’t do something when actually you probably can. And even having a go at something new, will produce some positivity in you and then you just start to reverse that trend gently but slowly.
7. People’s self-confidence has no doubt been negatively impacted by the pandemic. As we said, everybody’s situation is unique to them and everybody’s dealing with various challenges. Could you explain some of the potential reasons behind this and how this lack of self-confidence could manifest itself in people’s careers over time?
(13:53) We’ve all spent a lot of time in our own heads. We’ve got less distractions, less grabbing a quick coffee here or having a quick run or over there or buying something in a shop to distract ourselves or going out for beers after work. All of that’s gone, especially in these lockdowns. So, therefore, people are spending a lot more time in their own heads without those things to jolt them up and out of the negative spirals.
However, I genuinely believe that there are some positives from the pandemic in that it has caused a lot of us to pull back from overly busy lives and actually start to think “What do I really want from my life? Like when this is all over, how do I want to show up in the world?” And yet those people who’ve struggled with their confidence, I think they’ve lost the distractions, they’ve lost their network and they’re at home on Zoom a lot and there’s less structures in place to pull people up and out of their negative self-talk, which is why people need to work even harder on their confidence right now because it’s totally doable to go from being an unconfident person to a confident person.
And there’s so many resources online, but the key is even if you can’t do all your old things, you can still find new things to do to just eek your confidence forward. So, learn yoga online, or if you’re going for a walk around the block, walk a bit further or call a friend and say “You walk on one side of the road and I’ll walk another, let’s at least walk together”, or have a lunch date. Take your lunch break and call someone at work who you don’t know and say, “I don’t really know who you are, but we intend to work together, can we Zoom lunch together? Can I ask you some questions and you ask me?” Like, have a career date. All these things terrify people but the more we do them, especially now, the more we’re likely to come out of this pandemic holding our heads a little higher, and with a little more hope and we may have even used this time to learn and to grow new parts of ourselves. So, there is an opportunity here.
8. I imagine doing something such as a career date as you mentioned, might give you a boost in confidence from being able to do that in your own home behind a camera when you’re in a safe space too?
(16:31) Yes, and you can time bind it right? Rather than thinking “Oh my God, what am I going to say for an hour?” You could just say “Look, I’ve got twenty-five minutes. Do you want to get on Zoom, eat your sandwich and have your coffee with me and we’ll just get to know each other?” And then after 25 minutes- we all know we can chat for twenty-five minutes, keep it doable.
But yes, can you imagine stretching yourself to do something like that, that you would never have dared to do before, and it goes well? What that does is, reset your brain. It starts a new neural pathway and that new neural pathway is saying, “I can do things that I didn’t think I could do. Look at me, I did that and that happened! So, what can I do next?”. It’s literally about stopping the negative spiral and changing course.
I like that. Finding the positives of the pandemic and making positive changes, making the most of the situation.
9. Is there any way of knowing what the long-term impact that it could have on a person’s career?
(17:33) I think that is down to the individual and what they decide this is going to have in terms of the effect on their career. And again, that might sound pithy but everybody’s in the same boat. I think the key skills people need to be thinking about developing right now in order to get them through the pandemic and out the other side and into this new world, with confidence, would be resilience, acceptance, and adaptability.
So, we all are having to show enormous amounts of resilience at the moment. It is not easy being at home on a computer all day, having our conversations on Zoom. I’ve got my three daughters; they’re being schooled online. They’re not particularly enjoying it, but you know, we all must crack on. So, resilience is a big one.
Acceptance. So, what can I accept right now and what can I change? So, where have I got power and where don’t I have power?
And then adaptability is a big one. It may be that the career we thought we were going to have before the pandemic, might not be the career we end up having immediately and maybe long-term after the pandemic. But that doesn’t mean it won’t be a career you’re really going to enjoy and love because we don’t know what the world’s going to look like on the other side. And so, I think it’s about taking the skills we have and being adaptable with them and allowing life to take us in a different direction.
So, there’s been an enormous impact and there are people out there who haven’t got jobs at the moment. And that’s very scary and I’m not denying that at all but I do know that in most situations in life, skills are transferable and the most confident people I know are the ones who have adapted and changed to the current situation they’re in and say to themselves, “This probably won’t be forever”.
I know someone who has had a medical career before the pandemic and just got to the point where they thought, “I just can’t do this anymore, it’s not me” and has always wanted to write. So, they have left their job as a consultant doctor and they’re now writing a book. The pandemic and the pain of the overload of work has pushed them to let go and start something new. So, there are opportunities and that’s such a great example of someone being super adaptable and growing something new. I appreciate though that of course, people have got mortgages and rent to pay, and mouths to feed and I’m not saying it’s easy but I am saying, try not to think in a closed way about your career. Try and get your head up a little bit and see what other opportunities are out there. That’s what a confident person does.
That’s great and I certainly agree with transferable skills and the need to up-skill, especially when there’s a need for new skills in the current world of work. I would say to any of our listeners that there are resources available at Hays to help you with that.
One of the groups of people that have been greatly affected by the pandemic has been young people, whether that’s due to the sectors that they work in or generally the situations that they find themselves in.
10. Many young professionals with limited experience of the workplace may have lacked self-confidence before the pandemic and there’s the potential now that their feeling has only increased over the course of the crisis. What advice would you give to help them boost their self-confidence?
(21:15) The first thing I would say is, this is an incredibly difficult and unprecedented time and I know people who’ve been working for twenty to thirty years who have really struggled through this time. So, in no way should anybody be giving themselves a hard time for finding this difficult because it’s difficult for those of us who have continued working because we’ve had to find new ways, and it’s exhausting, particularly for people who’ve lost their jobs. It’s difficult for people who are completely isolated, for those with lots of children at home like me, this is a tough time, and I’m not surprised your confidence has been knocked.
This is what I would say. Imagine yourself as a confident person in the future. So, maybe set your stall out six months and think, “Okay, in six months’ time, I want to become this type of confident person”. So, maybe not like the most confident version of yourself, but a more improved and more confident person for yourself.
There’s an app on my website that people can use, which is on the homepage of my website. So, please go on there if you want to, and then think, “Okay, what small steps could I take in order to just improve my confidence?”. Now it could be that if I ate some more vegetables, I might feel like I’m being kinder to myself and that might boost my confidence. Brilliant, that’s a small thing, but a big tick in the box.
It might be “Well, I could use this time to rewrite my CV and maybe have five CV’s for five different types of sectors and what skills do I have to transfer?” Brilliant. You could think to yourself, “Actually, I really find interviewing difficult so, I’m going to find a friend who’s in the same position and we’re going to do interview practice on Zoom with each other? Brilliant idea. So, one is the interviewer, one is the interviewee and then swap around. It could be “Okay, actually I hate public speaking. It’s terrifying so maybe I’ll do an online course with that” or “I’m going to learn new ways to do my makeup so that I feel more confident on Zoom. So, I’m going to do an online makeup tutorial” or “I’m going to learn a brand-new skill. I’m going to join a Zoom choir just so I’m part of a group”.
Anything that stretches you forward, and they need to be small little things you can do cheaply, easily on Zoom. It could be growing some basil seeds. Think to yourself what would a confident person do? You can visualise it. They’d have some herbs growing on their kitchen window so go get some seeds and some soil and grow them. Tiny steps forward to get you up and out of your low self-esteem and your negative spiral. Just take small actions. It’s all about the action and it’s all about the thought proceeding the action and every time you do something positive; your confidence will just nudge forward a little bit at a time.
11. Thanks Jo, and you mentioned there about interviews. For those of our listeners who are applying for new roles but feel less confident when it comes to interviewing, whether that’s remotely or face-to-face when we get to that stage again, how can they address their concerns and become more confident during their interview process, from the preparation through to the actual interview itself?
(24:52) My advice would be to treat it as if it’s a live interview. So, do everything you would do before a live face-to-face interview. The only difference is going to be the fact that this one’s on Zoom. So obviously research the company, make sure that you can talk around your CV, that’s always a big one. People are going to be asking you about your CV during an interview, so have a copy of your CV there and write little stories you can tell, examples you can give around the different skills you’ve listed. People might say, “Gosh, you did a skydive in New Zealand (well they would with me in 1997, that’s how old I am!) tell us about that?”. Well, if I’ve already thought, “Oh yeah, I did that. I remember it was a cold day and I went up in an aeroplane and the guy next to me was really scared, but I just went for it”.
If you’ve got little stories to tell, I always think that’s great in an interview because an interview is about building a relationship. So, have your CV there with some notes, do your research on the company, make sure you are up early showered looking your best, make sure the room that you’re in is neat and tidy. And, I think do some affirmation work that morning. So, look at yourself in the mirror and say, “I’m going to do my best. If this isn’t meant for me then I won’t get it. If this is the right job for me, I will get it, and these are my skills”.
But the other most important thing to do would be to practice interviews, which is why actually the thing I was just saying about friends or parents, or get your kids to be the interviewers, it doesn’t matter. Just practice being interviewed on a screen because that takes the sting out of it on the day. If you’re not thinking “Oh God, I look really weird and what’s that light behind me?” You know, if you’ve been online in that environment and put yourself through that process a few times, the panic part of your brain will be disarmed because it’s done it a few times. So, it’s like, “Oh, this isn’t new territory” and you’re far more able to be present.
And the other thing with interviews I always say is we must be prepared, and we must treat it as a process. We’re there to sell ourselves but we’re also there to find out information about the company. It should be a two-way process and it should be a conversation in an interview. So, go with some questions of your own, not in a cocky way but in a genuinely interested way because they may tell you something about their company and you think “Gosh, there’s just no way I could work with these guys”. It would be a good job you had the interview because you found that out. Similarly, you might think, “Oh my gosh, that’s even more exciting. I didn’t know that about them”. I’m sure you guys say the same at Hays, this should be a two-way process an interview, but we go with our best selves. I think we can make too much of it being online and we can think that that makes it scarier. I don’t think it makes it scarier unless we’re believing a tape that tells us it’s scarier. I think it’s the same process, we just don’t go to someone’s office, we sit in front of our computer.
12. So, if someone’s followed your great advice, they’ve passed the interview stage, they’ve been offered the job and they’re about to begin it and they’re obviously starting their new job remotely. Is there any advice that you could give people to keep that self-confidence going, it must be a strange thing to start a new job remotely?
(28:30) Well, that is difficult and that is different, to starting a new job in an office. So, I would say building relationships. I would make building relationships your priority. In fact, I’m coaching a lot of people at the moment who have started work during the pandemic in new companies and it goes back to that Zoom lunch or that quick cup of coffee and can we have a chat thing. You all know who you need to build the strongest relationships with probably within your first couple of weeks and if you don’t, maybe ask your new boss “Who would it be good for me to get to know?”. And I don’t mean get to know from a work perspective, I mean, get to know as people.
Businesses are built on relationships; business is done on relationships and organisations work on relationships. The most important thing we do when we go to work is build relationships because then when your spreadsheet isn’t aligning with someone else’s, you’ve got a relationship there, which means you can chat about it rather than go on the attack with each other immediately. That’s a silly example but I would make building relationships your priority.
I would also ask questions. So, go to people, email people, or Zoom people and say, “Okay, I’ve just started, what would you like me to know about your job? What would you like me to know about what challenges you’ve got and how can I help with that? So, how would I best fit into this role and this company?”. And similarly, I would also be asking people for help. I’d be saying, “Look, I’m brand new and we are all working online, can I have some help with knowing who’s who and what the company culture is? And do we all break for lunch at one or is that flexible?”. Ask questions because it’s about building those relationships. And also go easy on yourself, it’s going to take you longer to hit the ground running, it’s going to take you longer to get into the groove at work when you’re starting on Zoom than it would have taken you in a live situation, so be kind to yourself and go easy on the expectations.
Some fantastic advice so far. And we wanted to discuss some of the more common areas of our listeners’ day-to-day lives that many may struggle with self-confidence in. So, I thought, firstly, if we focus on communication and those who are perhaps introverted and find it difficult to communicate on frequent video calls and meetings when working remotely.
13. So, we spoke at the very beginning about maintaining eye contact. Is there any way that our listeners can work on that to ensure that they’re communicating in a confident and effective way when they’re on video calls and meetings remotely?
(31:27) I think the first thing to do is to start changing that tape that’s playing. They’re telling themselves that they can’t do it and that they’re not very good at it and nine times out of ten, nobody else is thinking that. So, I come up against this again and again when people are believing a negative narrative about themselves that nobody else can see. So, if people can start challenging that negative voice that’s saying, “You’re no good at this, you’re really boring. No one wants to listen to you. Look so-and-so’s doodling while you’re talking, that always happens”, et cetera, et cetera. If you can start challenging that and thinking “I have a voice. I’m employed in this company for a reason, I’ve got something to say”, all really empowering, opposite statements.
I think what is also handy, is to look at some personality profiling. So, I use DISC in my coaching practice, which is just a very simple personality profiling tool, and I’m sure there are some free resources online, where you will see that you are either an introvert or an extrovert, and you’re either people-focused or task-focused and how that manifests in your work. And the people who tend to find Zoom difficult, tend to be the more introverted, more detail-based people, not everybody, but generally. And there’s a book by Bev James called ‘Do It or Ditch It’. She’s great, in fact, she runs the coaching academy where I train, and in there, they talk about the different skills that different personality types have and whenever I’m doing team building or leadership development, it’s the introverts who I’m most interested in hearing from.
So, you’ll do a bit of team building and the extroverts will be there, loud, chatting and rolling ideas around, there’s this big conversation. And I’m watching the quieter types, they’re more introverted and I can see that they’re doing their thinking while everyone else is doing their talking. So, extroverts talk to think, whereas introverts think to then talk but what introverts don’t do, is elbow their way into the conversation and take the stage. So, I will be saying, “And what do you think Stan? Lee, I haven’t heard from you yet. What do you think?”. And out they come with these amazing nuggets because they’ve been in their heads, sorting things out.
The value of the introvert, the deep thinker to a team and organisation is so high and if you are an introvert and you’re listening to this, I want you to hear this really clearly: the way your brain works, the way you organise information and the way you can succinctly present that with clarity to the group, is so important and you absolutely owe it to the organisation you’re in, to your team and to yourself to speak up. So, I really want people to know that.
What you might want to do if you’re an introvert, is say to your manager or one of the extroverts in the room, “Can you give me a nudge? Can you call me into the conversation because my natural setting is to sit back and not say anything?”. So, ask someone to call you in when you’ve had time to think and that way it will become easier if you’re put on the spot if you don’t want to be. But if you’re put on the spot and you get time to think, this is very important for people who are introverted, you will find in six months’ time you’ll just be speaking when you think it’s time to speak. So, honestly, I think that’s probably the best piece of advice I can give to people who find all of this really difficult is, know your value and ask someone to call you out from the shadows.
14. And for those in a similar situation who are experiencing nerves when preparing for a presentation or speaking in front of other people, do you have any top tips on how they can work on their confidence and what impact will this have on their presentation skills?
(35:38) So, I’m just putting the finishing touches to my public speaking online course, actually because I’ve done a lot of this work one-to-one, and I can’t keep up with the demand, so I’m putting it into an online course. So again, I’ve put this into five key points but there are more.
Number one, I would say expect to be nervous. You will feel nervous when you’re giving a public speech, it’s normal, natural and it shows you care. Here’s the thing, when we experience big feelings, big emotions, we tend to want to back off from them because we think the brain goes into this fight, flight, freeze thing and it thinks “This feeling is going to kill me, I have to get away from this feeling” and in that moment, what we do is run away from the thing we’re scared of.
However, if you’ve seen any emotion through, from beginning to end, you will know that what feelings do, is build and build, and just when you think you can’t cope with them anymore, they then start to pass and die away. So, we must expect nerves. I’ve been doing public speaking for years and I still get nervous, but I just think, “Oh, hello nerves, here you come”. I almost open my body for the nerves to come through and I welcome them in and honestly, within thirty seconds they’ve gone. And I now expect them as the beginning of giving a public speech. So, the first thing to do is expect to be nervous, that’s not a sign that you can’t do it. It’s a sign that, yes, this is the reality, you’re giving a public speech and the feelings will pass.
The second thing is to know that a public speech is not about you. It’s about the information you’re giving. So many people when they’re doing a public speech, get hit up about what will people think of me? Will I do it right? Will this be the making or breaking of my career? And they make it all about themselves, which is a small egoic position to take. If you think “This is about the information, how can I best deliver the information so that people, my audience have the information and can go away and use it to make their work easier or their careers better?” Suddenly the pressure’s off and it’s like, “Oh, I’m just a curator for the information”.
So that’s a great tip. If we can expect the people, we’re giving a public speech to, want us to do well because quite frankly, it’s embarrassing for them if it’s not. So, they want you to do well. They want you to give them the information. They want to go away thinking “I’ve really learnt something today” and that therefore they are bringing their goodwill. They want you to do well. If you can just pick up on that goodwill, smile at a couple of people, they’ll smile back. You’ll think, “That persons got my back, and this is going to be all right”, then again, you’re changing the negative tape into a positive one.
The best way to start a public speech is to engage people from the very beginning. So, if you’ve ever heard me speak, you’ll often see that one of the first things I do is I’ll say to everybody “What did everyone have for breakfast today? Anyone have eggs?”. And there would be a show of hands and I’d be like “I had eggs and salmon. Anyone beat me?” And somebody else would say “I had eggs, salmon and avocado actually, Jo” and there’s just this general identification process where we all just remember where humans and we connect on a human to human level i.e. “What did we all have for breakfast? Or how was your commute? Or who slept well last night? Or who dreamed, who didn’t?” Anything silly to just create that relationship again is important and what it does is give you a chance to let those nerves, as I spoke about before, come up, crest, and fall away.
The other thing with public speaking is, use questions throughout, ask people, questions, ask for feedback because the more engaged people are, the better they will find the experience but also the more confident you will be because you will be having those relationships. You don’t have to know all the answers in a public speech. You’re there to give basics of information and start a discussion or open the forum for questions. So, those would be my top five tips for public speaking.
Thank you very much, I really relate to that. I’ve been told in the past that I’m good at speaking in front of people, but I’m always nervous and I think part of the process is recognising that you are nervous but realising that it is going to pass exactly as you said. You can be as nervous as you want beforehand, but it’s only momentary and it will go.
(40:17) It doesn’t have to be a barrier unless you believe it’s a barrier. Otherwise, it’s just nerves. Like it’s just breathing, it’s just rain, you know, it’s just a thing.
I really liked what you said about everybody wants you to do well. No one wants you to fail, and I think recognising that is also very important as well. People are there to get something out of it and there’s a reason why you’re the one that’s speaking as well.
14. We’re onto our last question and this is a question which we ask all our podcast guests. If you had one piece of advice to give to our listeners to help them navigate their careers throughout this pandemic and beyond what would that be?
(40:59) So, I thought long and hard about this, and this is what I want to say. I think if you do your best but leave the outcome to the universe for want of a better word, to nature, to life with a capital L, we cling really tightly on what we think the outcome has to be. We miss so many opportunities along the way, so, it goes back to what I was saying earlier on.
I think my one piece of advice would be: do your best and allow life to partner with you and bring you its best version of an outcome because I tell you, it will be much better and wider and more exciting than something you could have ever even imagined. When I first started training as a coach, I had no idea I was going to end up in the position I am. I just followed my nose and done the next right thing and made quality the most important thing, made helping people, my North star. Doing my best has absolutely been the thing I’ve focused mostly on and I’ve ended up with just an enormous career that I wouldn’t have even dreamed of this. And I think it’s because I’ve done my best, but I’ve held the outcome lightly. That would be my best advice.
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