Welcome to viewpoint

Careers & workplace advice from Hays

Regardless of the stage in your career at which you find yourself, it’s useful to consider your goals and the steps you will need to take in order to reach them. Whether you are navigating change or juggling external commitments, a career map will always prove a helpful tool.

Today I’m joined by Kathryn Bishop CBE, an associate fellow at Said Business School at the University of Oxford. She was the first chair of the Welsh Revenue Authority, and in 2021 was awarded a CBE for services to diversity and public administration. Kathryn also authored the book, ‘Make Your Own Map: Career Success Strategy for Women‘.

1. Could you please tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and your career and what it is that you do?

(1:25) Over the last thirty-something years, I’ve spent time both in the private sector and the public sector always working in organisations, working with leaders who are trying to get stuff done.

Currently, I combine teaching at the business school at the University of Oxford with trying to put my teaching into practice in the organisations that I work with, in both paid roles and voluntary roles. I teach at the business school. I’m chair of Britain’s newest tax authority, as you said, and my work currently particularly focuses on education. I’m interested in the development of people at every age from childhood, nursery age children to executives.

As part of that, I’m also particularly interested in women’s development. I program, direct, and have designed business schools to leadership programs for women. But having said that, what we’re going to talk about today, I think, is particularly relevant to women but also relevant to men.

2. Could you define for us what you mean by career mapping and what that involves?

(2:43) I don’t think anyone thinks of careers as a ladder anymore. Nobody has the idea that we’re going to move steadily and regularly up from the lowest rung to the highest. Our working lives are just not like that. These days we change ladders, maybe even move down wrong for a while. And so, actually, the image of a landscape is more useful. We have to navigate through that landscape, dealing with obstacles to get where we want to go. So, the idea of drawing your own map is the image that comes from that.

Finding your own route, given your interests and what you want to do is key, and drawing yourself a map of how to get there is actually a vital skill, which you’ll use over and over again as working lives change. For each of us, I think our careers are important, but we don’t want to find ourselves careering out of control from one unsatisfactory job to another. So, this idea of mapping, of navigating, of plotting your route, is at the heart of the way we talk about managing your own working life.

3. For some time now, you’ve worked with organisations to guide them through change, and you’re now discussing similar ideas and supporting individuals also undergoing change within the workplace. Was there anything in particular that motivated you in this shift in perspective, and what are the similar core principles between organisations and people?

(4:23) Some years ago, about ten years ago, I was sitting in a lecture theatre with a colleague of mine who is a brilliant strategy professor. We were working with the board of a global organisation, helping them formulate their strategy in markets that were rapidly changing and given some new things that they wanted to do. At one point, in the middle of these very detailed discussions, he turned to the group and said, “Oh, by the way, do you have a strategy for you? Because if you don’t, you should.” And for me, that was a lightbulb moment. All the tools that organisations use to help them navigate through changing markets are also useful for us as individuals as we navigate through the working world. In the subsequent ten years, I’ve experimented with these ideas, tested them, and found ways of using organisational strategy models to help each of us as individuals make our own map.

4. Why is a career map especially important for women?

(5:33) Well, I think it’s important for everyone to be able to have a sense of where they’re trying to get to and what might the possible routes be. Knowing where you’re aiming for and what success means to you is a useful definition for us all, but it’s particularly relevant for women because women’s working lives are often subject to unplanned, uncontrollable, and sudden changes. This is because of the many roles they play at work and outside; the variety of responsibilities they might have at home for young children or elderly relatives or in the community.

So, they need to use their navigational skills quite regularly. Their lives go through visibly different phases: single or married, with children or without, with family caring responsibilities or not. Now, of course, men’s lives go through those different phases too, but the evidence suggests the effects on their working lives are less pronounced. They are a little more controllable.

5. What are the positive changes that you’ve seen when it comes to women mapping their careers now as opposed to 20 or 30 years ago?

(6:58) I think some of the changes we’ve seen in the working world have helped everybody. We now know that careers don’t have to be full-time for 40 years. You don’t have to stay at the same firm from day one until you get your pension. It seems much more acceptable, indeed even useful to move around from organisation to organisation or from sector to sector.

In that context, it’s very useful if we can all develop ways of mapping our working lives. But for women, in particular, the sense that women’s lives move through phases has really helped open up a range of options. It’s easier now to come back to work after a break or to negotiate a part-time role for a while. It’s more acceptable in the gig economy to have more than one role running at any one time. We might even take a pay cut and allow us to move into a different sector or geography for a while, knowing that we’ll develop new skills that will pay off later. Over the last 20 years, the sense of a variety of working lives has really opened up a number of options for us, which I think 40 years ago would have been seen as very, very unusual.

6. We’re obviously talking about change today, and one of the biggest changes that have happened to all of us over the past couple of years has been the pandemic. How has the pandemic affected the way in which people think about their career paths?

(8:34) The remote working changes we have seen over the last two years and actually the current experiments with four-day working weeks that some organisations are starting to do. I think it will open up many, many more opportunities to do different work in different places and at different times.

I think there are going to be more choices, and that makes it all the more important that we make the right choices. I think the last two years have also shown many of us how important it is to find useful work, work that has meaning for us. That might be work that provides more learning opportunities, maybe makes some more visible contributions to the community or the world, or something that just matters more to each of us. There is a pronounced sense at the moment that since I’m going to spend so many hours a week doing my job, it’s important that it has meaning for me, and the compensations of interesting colleagues and office coffee aren’t enough if my job feels dull and meaningless. So, that combination of increased choice together with increased emphasis on a sense of meaning and importance, I think has really focused people’s minds on the importance of planning and strategising of their working lives.

7. As you described, some people realise what’s important to them and that might involve a change in career paths, perhaps getting some kind of another big step within their career. What are the important things for people to consider who are contemplating a change in their career, especially for those listeners of ours who might need a confidence boost?

(10:33) When you’re contemplating making a change, you’re doing exactly what organisations do when they plan a new product launch or plan to move into a new market and so many of the tools and ideas that they use to think about their strategy for doing that, you can also apply to yourself.

Specifically, firstly, recognise the resources you have. Recognise what you’ve already done, experienced, coped with, and especially over the last two years. Strategy often starts with a clear-eye view of what you can currently do, what your current skills are. And many of us, frankly, underestimate the number of things we could do or indeed have done.

So, one of the things I recommend at the outset is just to draw yourself a journey map, remind yourself of everything that you’ve done. Typically, when people do that exercise, they find that there are things they haven’t captured on their CVs.

Secondly, think about your work for the whole of your life. What phase are you in life? Is your work the most important thing right now? Or is it part of a busy life with many responsibilities outside? Whatever that may be. Because when you’re thinking about strategising for your working life, you got to fit it into the context for you as a person.

And then, thirdly, if you’re contemplating making a change, think about the different ways you could make that transition. You could move to a completely new job in a completely different sector in a single bound. But it might be hard to get a job for which you have no previous experience and it might certainly be very demanding in the first few weeks and months of doing it.

If you don’t want to take that kind of risk in making a change, think about making some interim steps. For example, how might you use your existing skills in a new sector? Let’s say analysis skills gained in a financial services company might be used in a market research business, for example. Or, alternatively, look at it the other way around. Consider how you might take a different role inside your existing organisation where you know people and you are yourself known.

You might find you have time to develop a new set of skills, which you might later use in making a change. When organisations contemplate different growth paths, they use what we call the ‘Ansoff Matrix’ to look at various options, and it’s a particularly useful model for individuals thinking about how to make a transition in their own working lives.

8. We have quite a broad listenership on the Careers Advice podcast. How would the process of career mapping differ for somebody who’s just starting out in the world of work compared to someone who is in the late stages of their career, for example?

(13:46) In essence, the process of strategising for your career is the same at whatever stage you are at. If you are currently in your first or second job, you will have developed some resources and some experience and that’s where strategy starts. It’s one of the three elements that all good strategy for any kind of organisation, and for any of us at any stage in our career must contain resources. What have you got to work with? What do you know? What have you experienced?

Secondly, opportunity. What are the opportunities for you currently in your existing organisation or your existing sector, or the place in the world where you live? Balancing the internal focus on resources, the stuff that you know and can do, with the external focus on what the opportunities might be, is a very important dimension. But there is a third dimension, and this comes back to the point I was making about meaning.

The third dimension of good strategy is about purpose. What purpose does the organisation serve? What purpose do you yourself serve? And even in an early stage in your career, you can start to identify some things that are important and meaningful to you. Your sense of purpose might shift a little bit as your life progresses, but it’s unlikely to turn into something completely different. You’ll be able to identify the things that really matter to you at any stage of your career.

9. I imagine an important part of growing your career is networking. I’m just keen to gather what your opinions are on networking and then to what extent is this a useful experience when mapping out one’s career and why is it different for women as well?

(15:51) I think networking is useful for everyone because one of the three key elements of the strategy is to keep an eye on the opportunities that are available to you. Learning from others, connecting with others inside your organisation or outside can be a very useful source of insight. It’s important for us all to keep our eyes lifted to see what’s out there.

Get data, get different views. So, those network connections can be a source of insight, a source of advice but they can also be a source of access. There is some research that suggests that men and women use their networks differently. Women often use their networks for advice and perhaps less frequently for access, finding out about new opportunities that may suddenly be arising. Neither of those is right or wrong, it’s just useful for us all to remember that a good network can give you both advice and access. So, decide which you want.

Two final points on networking. Firstly, it can be very useful to develop almost your own board of directors. A group of people with whom you are very close– someone who has more experience than you do in the field in which you work. Someone who’s really good at coaching and asking questions. Perhaps somebody who serves as a mentor or a sponsor. Somebody who can both challenge you and support you, and actually, that small close network can be very useful.

But of course, networks really work well when you give as well as receive. And in building your own network, don’t forget that you yourself have something to offer to others. That way, you build strong and useful connections that will help both you and the people in your network.

10. If you had one piece of advice to help our listeners navigate their careers throughout the pandemic and beyond, what would that be?

(18:19) I think I would sum up the key things in being able to map your own working life with the following short phrase: Know yourself and connect with others. Know what you’re good at, what you like doing, what you’re aiming for and keep scanning the working world because there are many opportunities out there, particularly now, which you may not know about, but which someone in your network probably does. So, know yourself and connect with others.

Kathryn Bishop CBE is author of ‘Make Your Own Map: Career Success Strategy for Women’, which is available in hardback, paperback or as an ebook here. Use code HAYS20 for a 20% discount.

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Equity, Diversity and Inclusion, or ED&I, is an increasingly vital consideration for any organisation. And when strategies are successfully implemented, these contribute to continued, and sometimes, transformational growth and success. However, many leaders struggle to prioritise and practically navigate the steps they can take to turn talk into meaningful action.

Today, I’m delighted to be joined by an award-winning ED&I leader, Sheree Atcheson. Sheree is listed as one of the UK’s Top Most Influential Women in Tech and is an international multi-award winner for services of diversity and inclusion, working with Deloitte and Monzo. Having trained in computer science, she is a board member at Women Who Code and a contributor to several prestigious publications, including the HuffPost Forbes and The Financial Times.

Last year, she published her first book, “Demanding More: Why diversity and inclusion don’t happen and what you can do about it.” This book has received critical acclaim from the business community.

1. Could you please tell us about yourself and your journey to becoming the leading advisor on ED&I matters that you are today?

(2:01) Sure. So, my career in diversity and inclusion leadership has spanned over a decade which I’m super proud of. I started my career as a software engineer, and like you said, studied computer science. So, I took a very technical data-driven approach to diversity and inclusion. I was raised in Ireland, as you can probably tell from my accent, and so I spent my whole life there. I was adopted at three weeks old from Sri Lanka. So, I have a lot of experience of working or living, I guess, as one that is the only one here.

We talk about the “only” quite a lot when we talk about boardrooms, talk about meetings, and so on, but actually, most people don’t have the experience of being the “only” in your family, in your friends, in your school, so on. And that gives you a very unique perspective, and certainly, that perspective and that extra awareness and nuance.

I brought that through with the work that I do. For me, what’s really important is the recognition of that, the different experiences we all have in the same place and recognising that actually, our own experience is not the only experience that exists as well. I think that’s really key.

And so, I spend a lot of time with organisations helping them get that awareness, imbedding it into processes and policies, making sure that they are holding themselves to account with data both on diversity and inclusion separately, and then, moving forward with sustainable and scalable change. I think that’s the key thing. I don’t work to create things that only work in the “right now”, but actually things that will scale and change as everything scales and changes. As we’ve seen in the last few years, everything changes. Nothing is consistent. So, that’s really where I fall into, really helping organisations in that space.

Fantastic story. And I love the idea of combining our lived experience with that analytical approach. And we’re looking at the kind of the end-to-end nature of this journey that so many organisations, and indeed, individuals are going on.

2. To give our discussion a framework, can I just ask you to explain what the concepts of equity, diversity, and inclusion mean to you when it comes to the world of work? And importantly, what the nirvana of a truly inclusive workplace might mean for both employers and employees in due course.

(4:30) Yeah, of course. So, I think for me, it’s really important to keep things simple. Sometimes, I think definitions are overworked, and it means that it becomes really confusing for people, which I don’t like. So, firstly, I think when we talk about diversity, what I’m talking about is representation. It’s simply: who is within the business and who isn’t within the business? Understanding the “why” behind that is when we start to move into inclusion.

So actually, how are we including people from all different backgrounds, both that are represented in the business right now and that aren’t? And maybe will be in the future? I think it’s really key to recognise it because so many people use diversity and inclusion as almost like a buzz phrase. The two things are very separate and very different and your strategy should reflect that.

And equity is when we start to look at the different measures we need to put in place to change the trajectory for different groups of people. So, we recognise that actually not everyone starts on the same rung of the ladder. So, providing equal support is of no use because that means we would provide everybody the same support and hope that that would fix the problems that we have. But actually, it doesn’t address and readdress the very clear discrepancies and differences that different people start out with when we consider, let’s say, gender, ethnicity, socioeconomic background, disability, and so on.

For me, whenever all of those things come together and we have environments that embrace diversity which fosters inclusion through equity, we have environments where, ultimately, everybody is heard. And that’s really important because being listened to is the biggest privilege that you can have. Everybody is heard regardless of where they sit in the business, what their background is. They know that they are heard and that their insights are actioned so that they know that actually, what I say matters and how I say it matters as well. I know that I’m going to be listened to.

The next thing is actually we ensure that this is a solution that we create and map to everybody. We create software solutions and different kinds of solution designs and so on every day of the week for society. Now, society is not monolithic, yet many of the teams creating these solutions are monolithic. So, my goal or my dream would be, certainly that, even if people aren’t directly represented within the business, there are avenues used to get those perspectives through roundtables, think tanks, and so on to at least change that trajectory. And so, when all of those things come together, the diversity, the inclusion and the equity, we know that: one, we’re providing environments for people to thrive in regardless of whatever their goals might be but also, we can trust that they’re creating systems and solutions that meet the needs of everybody, not just the majority.

Thank you very much. It’s a meaningful body of work that’s constantly changing and evolving and needs reflection, innovation, and creation. And I think, again, your analytical approach to that is absolutely vital.

3. In your book “Demanding More”, you explore the nuances of privilege and unchecked and unconscious biases. Well, these are huge topics in their own right, but can you explain why it is so important that organisation leaders, in particular, take the time to understand what these are? And importantly, how to get more comfortable with, some might say, the inevitable self-reflection that can accompany this?

(7:57) I think that the first thing as to why leaders, for example, need to be aware of unchecked, unconscious bias privilege is because you are the decision makers. Okay, you sit at the tables that define strategy, that define company vision, that define the business plans, define the goals to make the business successful or what success looks like. And so, actually, if you aren’t considering your own bias, your peer group’s bias, industry bias, and so on, and the privilege that comes from those different things, then you’re not creating a solution that maps in the best way possible.

The other key thing here is that self-awareness and company awareness is key, and they’re two separate things. All of my work is really rooted in privilege awareness. And so, for example, in any company that I go into, the first thing that I will mandate for leadership is privilege awareness workshops. And what they are is to really unearth what privilege actually means outside of binary concepts. And delve into detail as to what that means for you personally, and then how you make changes with that, both in your own sphere and within a company sphere. And that’s what a big part of “Demanding More” is as well.

And I have open-sourced that training that I’ve done as well when I was at Monzo too if anybody wants to look at it or use it. But what I think is really key is that when we start to talk about privilege and bias and so on, the people recognise that it’s all well and good to say, okay, I care about diversity and inclusion. I want things to be better but what that really, really must mean is that you recognise that what you were doing already isn’t good enough. Whether you’re trying enough isn’t good enough. You need to do more and you need to be very, very specific about what it is that you are doing. No vague fluffy lines, no vague commitments, but actually very specific on what the goals are and how you are involved with them.

That’s sometimes where you lose people because people are happier saying that they care about things without the recognition, that that means you personally need to change, and I include myself in that – I have to change as well. Everybody has to change in some way shape or form. So, I think that it’s really key that leaders recognise that the rule is instrumental in the success of any diversity and inclusion strategy if it’s done right.

4. You speak a lot in your work about the opportunity and the power of allyship when it comes to creating inclusive environments where more people are more confident to speak up and speak out. How can our listeners be agents of change and really get involved as effective allies?

(10:37) Whenever I think of allyship, I’m talking about direct changes, direct interventions. Changing and creating cultures of inclusion that are better for both people that you may identify with, and people that you don’t identify with as well. That’s a really important point because it’s all too easy for us to care about the experience of people that we, maybe, feel a connection to, whether that’s, let’s say, if I was a heterosexual white man, then maybe I would feel a stronger connection to heterosexual white women. But actually, what about women of colour? What about LGBT+ folks? What about disabled people? And so on.

What’s really key, firstly, is that we recognise that our role is bigger than just those that we may feel some connection to because that ultimately then creates another element of exclusion. I call it exclusionary inclusion, which I write about in my book as well. So, do that first. Really recognise what you’re trying to change and who you’re trying to help.

And then, the second thing is commitment. What I ask people to do is be very deliberate about the decisions that you are making. I describe my role as putting friction in decision-making processes, stopping people from making snap decisions, stopping people from ultimately short-circuiting decisions because of bias, and so on and stereotyping etcetera, but actually, taking a moment to sit back and think. And yes, it means that you need to slow down which not everybody wants to do but, actually, the long-term and midterm gain is much, much more impactful than a short term win of a slightly quicker or a quicker decision.

So, what’s really key here is recognising that there are lots of things you can change around who you’re listening to, how you’re learning, and then the action that you put into place. And what I would ask people to do is to recognise that allyship is very much a journey, you know. I’m on a journey of allyship every day whenever it comes to trying to do things better for other people or listen and learn, and so on. And recognise that it isn’t just one thing that you do and then you stop, but actually, that consistent and regular awareness moving into education and action is really, really important because I think, what that gives you is a way to imbed this into, actually, your day-to-day.

When we talk about allyship, when we talk about diversity and inclusion, we’re not just talking about what happens in your 9-to-5 or your day job. What we’re talking about is how you exist in the world and how other people maybe don’t exist in the exact same way.

5. Hays podcasts like this reach a global audience. The ED&I landscape can look very different depending on where you are in the world. You consult on a global basis. How does an organisation practically navigate the complexities of combining that all-important global vision and strategy, but delivering that within the context of local operating environments?

(13:48) Again, this is something that people have over-engineered and made more complicated because of bias. Let’s say you have a senior leader focussed on D&I and their experience is primarily in EMEA or North America. And so, you take their experience and they try and map it across the world. That doesn’t work and it doesn’t fly, and it’s actually detrimental to diversity and inclusion.

What I think is really important and what I’ve done in all of my roles, which have global roles and certainly at Valtech where I work now, where my role is across 19 different countries. I will always create a global framework. So, regardless of where you are in the world, when you talk about, let’s say, diversity and inclusion at your company, there’s a consistent narrative as to what that means. Whether it’s around your business strategy, your hiring, or all of those things intertwined, you should be creating consistent frameworks. And what that means is that you create different things for people to roll out, whether that’s across hiring matrixes, for example, sponsorship programmes, different trainings, and so on, but that you allow people and give people the room to regionally and locally implement.

So, I call it global collaboration, regional and local implementation. What we’re talking about here is giving people a consistent way to do things, but embracing the nuance that is required for, let’s say, when you roll out something that is in Switzerland versus Argentina, or India, or North America, and all of the nuances that are in those regions as well.

What I think is really important is that you do not take a one-size-fits-all approach, especially when it comes to data because obviously, data has lots of legal requirements, so on too. But it’s very easy to sometimes think, oh, we can use what works in North America across EMEA for example. That doesn’t work and vice versa. Be very deliberate about what you’re trying to do. Create something that answers to the majority of the different regions that you’re looking at and enable that nuance, so that people can implement it in a way that really rings true for their people.

A really good example of this is in Valtech, we’ve just launched our Accelerating Into Leadership programme which is to help with the progression of underrepresented people in the business up the ranks because we have very good diversity when it comes to our junior mid-tier ranks, but actually, in senior leadership, we don’t have that diversity. So, we know we need to change something. Now, the programme has a sponsorship framework that pairs junior mid-tier folks that are underrepresented with senior leaders in their part of the business. What’s really key is that we spend time with every part of the business or every region that’s part of the pilot, defining what “underrepresented” actually means. For example, underrepresented in the UK might mean, let’s say, at those high-level women and people of colour, but in India, it’s not going to be in women and people of colour. It’s going to mean something different.

So, spending the time deciding, actually, what do we mean by “underrepresented”, creating the consistent framework, and then implementing it in a way that makes sense. So, proteges meet different criteria per whatever region it is that they’re from. That allows us to create an equitable measure because we’re really readdressing on a local basis what happens, but we’re consistently implementing globally. And I think that’s what we need people to do, is to recognise that nuance should be embraced, but you can still provide structure in that process.

6. When we look at these increasing numbers of ED&I-related touch points across the world of work, knowing where to focus your attention can often feel really overwhelming. What advice would you give leaders who want to properly get started on the road to meaningful, sustainable change?

(17:34) The biggest mistake that I see people making is that they think listening once is enough to make decisions for a year. Let’s say, so you do, let’s say, roundtables or listening surveys once a year and you think that that information that you get is enough to determine what is happening throughout. The only answer to that is that’s not the case. The last two years should have proven that to us, that listening to people once a year on what they need, how they need, and how they feel doesn’t work because we have pivots throughout the year.

Things change, society changes, the world changes. And so, the first thing that you need to do is think about how you listen at scale and regularly. I would use a tool whether it’s something like Peakon, where I used to work, or different intelligent listening systems that allow you to regularly pulse all of your employees to understand how do they feel about management support. What about inclusion? What about reward? What about fair opportunities? And see how that happens and changes throughout the year. The real thing with that data and this is what I mean by inclusion data, is that you can use that to monitor the success of various different initiatives, enabling you to actually see, “Am I doing something that’s making a change, or are things just staying the same?”, rather than waiting a full year to determine actually, “Is something that I’m doing unsuccessful?” and then, I’ve just wasted a full year. Don’t do that.

That’s, again, from my background in software engineering where I used to work with agile and really developing solutions, constantly iterating those with a client, bringing it back for user research, for development, for testing, and so on. I do the exact same thing with my D&I strategies. It’s a consistent pivot where I review my strategy every single quarter to make sure that it’s really answering the needs of people. So, get ready to do that, because otherwise, what you’ll end up doing is investing a lot into, maybe, one or two things, but not getting the feedback to actually determine if they’re successful or not when you need it.

7. I’m finally going to finish with a question that we ask all of our guests. What do you think are the 3 qualities that make a good leader? And crucially, do you think that these qualities have changed as a result of the pandemic over the last couple of years?

(20:15) Empathy. I think it’s really important to recognise different experiences outside of your own and empathise with what that means.

The second thing is vulnerability. I need people to be very open and honest about where they’re going, how they’re getting their decision-making process, even if that means unearthing some growth areas that they may have as well.

And then, the third thing, I think, is the ability to be confident in a way that makes sense for you. All too often, we assume confidence is bravado, an ego parading around. Actually, what I mean by confidence is that you are confident in what you say because you know that you’ve spent the time deliberating all different perspectives, etcetera, to get yourself to that decision. I would consider myself an incredibly confident person now, but would I consider myself confident in the way that many other people would define confidence? Maybe not. And what I think is key here is that we recognise that by being a leader, there’s a responsibility of being a driving force in many, many ways. And you can do that in a way that makes sense for you – it doesn’t always have to be the same as everybody else.

Do I think that those skills have changed or those attributes have changed across the impact of COVID? Absolutely. I’ve seen leaders gain substantially across the last two years because employees and people want to know that they are being led by real people. Some of us have been able to weather this storm much easier than others, but we’re all still very much experiencing the pandemic whether it’s easier for others are not. It is very obvious. It’s obviously easier for others than not.

What is really key is that openness to share that. To share, especially, with the balance of working from home, with people having lost people and dealing with that, and so on. Being honest about the potential, maybe struggles that people are having. I’ve seen that organisations have really stepped up and stepped into doing that. What I really hope is that over the next two years and the next 5-10 years, we don’t lose the lessons that we should have learnt over the last two years. It’s that vulnerability is key, embracing flexibility is key, and being really open about our decisions is key.

Sheree Atcheson is author of ‘Demanding More: Why Diversity and Inclusion Don’t Happen and What You Can Do About It’, which is available in hardback, paperback or as an ebook here. Use code HAYS20 for a 20% discount.

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Equity, Diversity & Inclusion in the world of work is vital if all employees are to realise their full potential. For candidates looking to progress in their current workplace or find a new role elsewhere, an organisation’s commitment to these pillars will affect their experiences and opportunities.

Today we welcome Sheree Atcheson, an award-winning leader in Equity, Diversity & Inclusion whose career has included spells at Deloitte, Monzo, Peakon and now Valtech. She is also a board member at Women Who Code and Neurodiversity in Business. Last year she released her first book, titled ‘Demanding More: Why Diversity and Inclusion Don’t Happen and What You Can Do About It’.

1. To begin with, perhaps you could introduce yourself in your own words and tell our listeners a little bit about what you do.

(0:59) Yeah, of course. I guess like you just said I work in Diversity and Inclusion, and I’ve been doing senior leadership roles in that field for almost 10 years, or actually just over 10 years now. My work, the best way to describe it, is putting friction into decision-making. My job is really to help people recognise bias by slowing down, putting measures of accountability in place, so as we don’t just make snap decisions like we tend to do, but actually take time to recognise that we do things in ways that are short-circuiting, that are biased, and so on, and that we can actually change that if we really are meaningful about being inclusive.

I’ve held lots of different roles in this space. I write for Forbes, Thompson Reuters, and a whole host of other publications. For me, especially as someone who used to be a software engineer a really long time ago, taking a technical approach and a very clear data-driven approach to both diversity and inclusion, separately, is really important to me. Again, that’s a lot of what my book, Demanding More, is about, and really how I hold organisations to account with this work.

2. Your career and education, or training, if you will, has been in technology, which is a sector that has a reputation of being male-oriented. Can you tell us about your experiences of starting out in this in this world?

(2:28) I started my career as a software engineer. I studied computer science at University and then went to work in a local software house in Belfast, in the North of Ireland, where I’m from, as you can maybe tell by my accent. A lot of people seem to somehow think I’m either Scottish or from America, as well, which are two very different places!

But anyway, I’ve been an engineer for quite a few years and my work was really focused on creating inclusive technologies, so actually, how do people from all backgrounds with accessibility and so on use the solutions that we need to provide to everybody? For example, I was a lead engineer on the Register to Vote platform in the UK. If you’ve registered to vote online, you’ve used some code that I’ve written a really long time ago, and I’m sure people have made it much better since then.

I think for me, when I moved into that industry, I did a fair amount of work with my University when I was there because in the 100 people within my course at the time, only 10 of us were women, including myself. I’ve always been very aware, I guess, of the lack of diversity within technology, but certainly when you move into having that as an actual job, it becomes much more prevalent and much more, I guess, “in your face”, is the best way to describe it. When I graduated in, I think 2013, I wanted to change something. I wanted to do something better and figure out what was going on.

Now, like I said, this was in Belfast. That’s where I was living. What I wanted to do was not reinvent the wheel, but what I did want was to find some way to bring together the women in tech that were within Northern Ireland, that were able to come together, regardless of whether they were in jobs, out of jobs, interested in tech, wanted to pivot into it, wanted to learn a new skill. Something that was really important to me is socio-economic background, as someone who comes from a poor background who was raised on free school meals. I never wanted to create something that put another element of exclusion into the process, for example, charging people for events, and so on, whenever that would mean we were leaving people behind.

That’s when I find Women Who Code. Now, at that stage, Women Who Code, before it became a non-profit, a global meet-up dedicated to women in technology based in San Francisco. It had around 3,000 global members, but we didn’t have anything like it in the UK, specifically, and certainly not in Belfast. I guess I took it on myself to bring it across the water. I launched it in Belfast. I then launched it in London, Bristol, Edinburgh, Dublin, different parts of Europe, and so on, but I built that structure in the UK from zero to over ten thousand and counting members. I built remote teams to own it, creating partnerships with big companies, small companies, and everything in between, because the real purpose of that organisation is to change the face of tech.

We know there is a gender disparity. The great thing about Women Who Code now, where I sit as a board member, is it is the world’s largest non-profit globally dedicated to women in technology, with over 300,000 global members and a presence in over 80 cities. What’s really fantastic about it is that it provides free monthly meetups in all of its locations.

Now, why that’s important is that we can’t just focus our efforts, for example, on the main and big cities, the Londons, the San Franciscos, for example, but actually, all of the other places that we see technology growing in, coming out of the woodwork, being prioritised in cities, and so on, it’s really key that we provide inclusive ways and networks for, in this case, women in technology to come together. I think that’s a really important point when we think about the gender disparity that we have. Women Who Code is providing an equitable measure in that. I very much hope that there’s a day that we don’t need Women Who Code, but we’re not there just yet.

3. It’s fantastic to hear about how Women Who Code has grown so much. What advice would you offer our listeners who are embarking on a career path where perhaps, they don’t fit the typical demographic?

I think what’s really important is, firstly: sit and recognise that your voice is very much needed. There’s a really important point to that because we cannot create solutions, designs, applications, apps and so on for society without all of society being involved in that creation. Whether that’s through design development, testing, and so on, different voices are really important here because otherwise, we create teams of people that are homogeneous and do not reflect, actually, the people that are using it.

What I would suggest is that as hard as it may sound, is to recognise that you are very much a needed person in the industry. Yes, it means that you might be underrepresented for the time being, for now, but what you bring is an entirely new perspective. That new perspective has an ability to change the trajectory of the things that we create. I think that’s a wonderful thing to be able to be a part of.

4. Building on that, it’s important that employees or candidates show what they can bring to organisations. Reflecting on your experience and learnings, what steps can people take so they’re able to understand and recognise their potential, and also make sure that their voice is heard?

(8:18) I think that there’s two parts to that. I coach quite a few people, I sponsor quite a few people in the industry because I think that’s important, but what I always get people to do is spend time writing down their perception of their strengths and growth areas. It’s very easy if I was to ask you right now, “What are your strengths? What are your growth areas?” You might rattle off a few different bullet points, but actually it’s usually very on the surface.

What I want people to know, especially underrepresented people, is to really dig deep and recognise, “What am I really good at? What is it that sets me apart from everybody else? What do I need to get better at?”, because ultimately, if you can know what it is that you need to get better at before somebody else tells you, you have an opportunity to fill that gap with growth opportunities, trainings, and so on. That self-awareness is really key in getting ahead. I think, for me, personally, as someone who’s 30, a vice president in a global company, a multi-award winning leader, and a published author, that’s largely being down to the self-awareness that I really spent with my career, going through that.

When it comes to getting your voice heard, what I think is really important here, actually, before we even talk about people that are underrepresented getting their voice heard, is I want people to recognise that people that sit in leadership or sit in the rooms that need to listen, that you do need to listen. What’s really key here is that we have leaders that recognise that purposeful listening is much more important than they think. All too often, we tend to facetiously listen.

Now, the difference in that is, if I give you an example, if you think of when somebody’s talking to you, have you already made your response up in your head? Are you just waiting for your turn to speak? Or are you actually sitting back, listening to what they’re saying, then you’ll take a few seconds to digest it, and then you provide an answer? Because actually, for the person that’s speaking, it’s two very different experiences. Firstly, we need people to change there. We need leaders to recognise that you need to listen properly, not facetiously, and then when it comes to people sharing their ideas and having their voices heard, sometimes, I know that confidence can be a huge barrier for people, for obvious reasons. When I bring it back to that self-awareness piece, when you are acutely aware of what you’re good at or maybe need to grow on, I think that really helps with confidence, and then feeling comfortable, sharing ideas.

The other thing that I think is useful from a practical sense is sharing ideas in a safe space. You don’t have to start out in huge, big events or huge, big meetings that maybe feel slightly daunting, but actually, look at what you can do in, let’s say, smaller team meetings, even in one-to-ones, and building up your confidence from there, taking it in a sea of space.

That was, again, one of the reasons why I launched Women Who Code, was because we held lightning talks across all of our region that give women opportunities to share for 10 or 15 minutes or less, and an idea that they had in a really safe, open, welcoming space that they could still receive feedback on. Have a think about the different ways that you can do that, as well. You don’t have to jump headfirst into everything. Pace yourself, and I think that will really help your confidence grow.

5. Unfortunately, I’m sure that there’ll be people that are listening who might feel uncomfortable in speaking out when their employers aren’t taking the right steps towards diversity and inclusion. In this instance, how can an individual not only gather the confidence to raise their views, but also, how do they decide who is the best person to approach?

(12:06) I think that the first piece is recognising that psychological safety has to be a core part of your business/inclusion strategy. Both of those things are relatively the same. What that means is that you have avenues for people to share things in a way that may be anonymous, regardless of whether they are an intern, VP or CEO – that they have an avenue to share. That means they aren’t worried about potential repercussions and so on, so they have that safe space.

There’s a lot of great tools for that. Peakon is one of them, where I used to work at and that I use regularly, because it allows people to share, at any time, when you survey, anonymously. You can have conversations. When it comes to people, for example, maybe if that avenue doesn’t exist, what I would suggest is that if you are potentially, let’s say, quite junior or maybe mid-tier, is that you find someone in senior leadership, potentially, that you trust to talk to them about this first. If that means that you have someone, then, who can help voice those concerns on your behalf if you are worried about doing it yourself, then use that avenue.

I always say in any company that I work, if anybody wants to raise things, for example, and they maybe don’t want to do so anonymously but want to talk to someone confidentially, they can come to me or they can come to their People & Culture lead, and so on. You can always use someone else, who potentially is more senior, to help raise those issues for you.

The other thing is that there’s power in numbers, as well. If we’re talking about, let’s say, a conversation that a group wants to have, keep in mind that you don’t always have to be the only person fighting a battle or raising an issue, but actually coming together and sharing collective conversation points of discussions can be really useful, and also, potentially feel safer, psychologically, for you, too. The real thing that changes a dial on people’s sharing is companies creating safe spaces for people to do so, and that absolutely should be the priority.

6. Some of our listeners will be more privileged, not always necessarily, in terms of their position in an organisation, but also within society, as well. What can they do to make a positive difference?

I think privilege is such an important conversation. All of my work is rooted in privilege, awareness from unearthing privilege in processes, in policy, implementations to hiring, and everything in between.

I think the key thing here, firstly, is the self-awareness of privilege. Certainly, as myself, I very much describe myself as underrepresented but privileged. I’m a senior woman of colour in the industry from a poor socio-economic background, first person in my family to go to university, and a whole host of other things, from being adopted from Sri Lanka and raised in Ireland, but I’m also very privileged now in that I now have no financial worries. I am a senior leader that is listened to, which is the biggest privilege of all, and I am able to comfortably exist in many ways that many other, for example, women of colour are not. What I think is key here is recognising that allyship, which is the meaningful action of changing the trajectory and the environments of inclusion for other groups of people, whether you identify or don’t identify with them, is really key here, but recognising the nuance of allyship. Allyship isn’t one or zero, and the same where the privilege isn’t one or zero.

All too often, we take a binary view of privilege and we break it down, let’s say, by gender or ethnicity, or disability, but we never overlap the conversation, recognising that actually, we can also be underrepresented, potentially, and still be allies for other people. I can very much be working on my allyship for the Black community, for example, or for the LBGT+ community, for example, and I think it’s really key that we think about meaningful changes that we can do. At the top level, there should be how we listen more, how we make sure that we are actively listening regularly to different experiences other than our owns.

Secondly, that we are on a consistent journey of education so that we are seeking out to learn about those experiences globally, different regions, different nuances, and taking that on board.

One of the reasons I wrote ‘Demanding More’ was that all too often, people start an allyship journey from trying to make everything better, but they don’t spend time educating themselves on what has happened in the past to bring us to this point right now that we’re in, which really has been, people have made decisions based on exclusion deliberately. Education is key.

I want people to move into action, “What can I change? What decisions can I change? How can I hold myself on my peer group to account? How can I simply do things differently around my language, around who I deem important enough to listen to, to hire, to promote, and so on?”

I think that the combination of that listening, that awareness moving into education and action is really key when it’s about making a change. What I would suggest is that you recognise that this is a journey. We don’t just change everything overnight, but the first point of action here is recognising that you play a role in making things better than you find them.

7. Many of our listeners might be job searching at present. What are the indicators that an organisation is committed to equity, diversity, and inclusion, and isn’t just paying lip service?

(17:36) I think the first thing is transparency. What’s really important when it comes to businesses, showcasing and embracing diversity and inclusion in journeys is that they actively share the data that they have on where they’re at right now. If that data may not be good, it may not have good representation throughout various different areas, but they are still sharing it to be open and honest about that because they want to share where they’re trying to get to. Always look for that. Look for data that’s open and honest.

The second thing is look for appropriate dedication to diversity and inclusion internally. For example, I think it’s really important that, when you have D&I leaders, they have experience from doing that work, that it isn’t just a token role dedicated to passion versus skill set, because then, things don’t change. Look at the level that that person sits on. Are they in decision-making rooms? Do they feed into business strategy? Who do they report to? I think that’s really important to analyse and see what makes sense if that person does exist within the business.

The third thing is actually when you go into those interviews, ask about what’s important to you. If diversity and inclusion is one of those things, which I would hope it is, openly ask what they’re doing in that work. How are they trying to create environments that work for everyone? Are they on that journey at all? Use that as part of your reasoning as to whether you want to work there or not. I think it’s easy for organisations to potentially be preformative in this space. If they only do things and they only share information around flagship events, for example, International Women’s Day, Black History Month, Pride, and so on, but actually what you want to see is transparency in those reportings and so on throughout the year, I think that’s what I always look for.

When I moved to Valtech and I had lots of different offers from different companies, the reason that I chose Valtech was that the honesty that they had was very open. They were very honest and said, “You know what? We know we need to do something. We don’t really know what the something is, but we know that’s where we would have you because you are the expert to help us do that.” That’s all I needed to know. I’d seen the data and I knew it wasn’t exactly where we needed to be, but I can help change that because I sat in those senior levels, as well. I think it’s key to analyse it in the way that you would analyse job opportunity or career growth, ticketing the same frame of mind.

8. If you had one piece of advice to help our listeners navigate their careers, especially against the backdrop of the pandemic and beyond, what would that be?

My best piece of advice for people navigating their careers throughout something like a global pandemic or just in general is: do not put so much pressure on yourself and create goals that have time limits on them. One of the things that I’ve noticed the most, especially with a lot of the folks that I mentor, is that we, as people, time box everything. “By 30, I want to have done this.” “By X, I want to have earned Y,” and so on, but actually, life happens.

The last two years have shown us that that you cannot plan for life. It pivots, it changes. It throws huge curveballs at you. What I try to suggest to people is instead of creating those huge goals that may be directly attached to a time limit, open it up. Think about what state of mind that you want to be in when you achieve that goal, or what’s happening around you when you achieve that goal, but also set goals that are much smaller. I think it’s very easy for all of us to only focus on the big goals without recognising that actually, we have to accomplish so many small, tiny things along the way, and those small, tiny things are very much worth celebrating. The short version of that is celebrate the small wins. Embrace that. It’s a journey. Don’t put too much pressure on yourselves.

Sheree Atcheson is author of ‘Demanding More: Why Diversity and Inclusion Don’t Happen and What You Can Do About It’, which is available in hardback, paperback or as an ebook here. Use code HAYS20 for a 20% discount.

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The pandemic has forced change across the world of work and, now that global businesses have had time to adapt, leaders have the opportunity to look ahead and drive innovation as they navigate the new normal.

Today I’ll be chatting with Hays CFO, Paul Venables. Paul will be discussing how the pandemic has impacted upon the role of CFO and outlook as a finance leader and giving us his advice for CFOs in the future.

1. Could you introduce yourself to our listeners and explain a little bit about your role at Hays?

(1:00) I’ll be happy to. I’m Paul Venables, CFO of Hays PLC. Hays is the world’s largest and most diversified white collar recruitment business with 11,500 colleagues operating in 33 countries around the world. Every year, we help around 300,000 people find their next job. We’re a FTSE 250 listed company. And our annual turnover is about £6 billion. I’m one of the two Executive Directors who run the global business. And while I have functional responsibility for financing investor relations, an important part of my role is supporting Alistair Cox, our group CEO, both determining the strategy for Hays and driving the operational performance of the group through our regional management teams. Part of that, I review and approve all significant commercial contracts with our customers on a global basis.

2. Could you talk us through a very brief history of your career today? It’d be great to understand how you got to where you are today.

(2:01) Paul: Yes, I started with Deloitte in 1983 a long time ago, and spent eight years with them; four in the UK in Nottingham, and four in the U.S. based in Boston. Both UK and US qualified, had a very career with the like of extensive audit, M&A, and consultancy work across a variety of industries. When I left the firm, I was a senior manager in the US practise. In 1992, I then joined a logistics company called Ocean Group, which over time through acquisitions became Exel plc, then one of the world’s largest full service logistics businesses providing contract logistics, air freight, sea freight, and road transport in over 140 countries around the world.

I was at Exel for 14 years and did 14 roles, both in finance and operations. I started at Group Centre as a group financial analyst working on M&A capital projects and group reporting before moving into one of the businesses joining McGregor Cory, the UK and European contract logistics business as a Commercial Finance Manager. And then after two years, I became FD. In this role, I learned many of the key aspects of being a Finance Director, including financial processes, billing, payroll, credit control, and managing finance team of 100 people in six countries, as well as being an active member of the management team.

I then moved to be FD of the largest group division, MSCS, a global air freight and sea freight business based in 140 countries around the world. And here, I focused on building a strong finance team to drive the transformation of the finance function, setting up regional shared service centres around the world to drive efficiencies and best practices. Then, relatively uniquely as a finance professional, I then moved into operations. Initially, as a CEO of our technology and life science logistics division based in the UK and Benelux. I then project managed all aspects of the building of the first modern contract logistics facility in Penang in Malaysia. And later, I ran a global air freight and sea freight operations, including procurements.

Finally, I moved back into the group as Deputy Group Finance Director in charge of the global finance function, commercial projects, and M&A. And so we sold the business to DHL for 3.7 million in 2005. And in 2006, I joined Hays Group as Finance Director, and I’ve been actively involved in all aspects of the global transformation of our business over the last 15 years.

3. I’d really be interested in your opinion. We sat here today almost two years into the COVID-19 crisis. From your perspective, how was Hays as a business been impacted by the pandemic?

(4:49) That’s really hard to remember pre-pandemic, isn’t it? I think like many businesses, the impacts on pandemic on Hays has been dramatic, and on three levels. Firstly, on trading. Things fell by 37% within six weeks after the pandemic hit in March 2020. The fastest decline in activity by far in our 53-year history. It then stabilised on May 2020. And since November 2020, we’ve seen the strongest recovery and activity in our history, and the hottest permanent recruit market, both globally, including the UK, in the last 20 years. Exactly in operations, including finance, we instantly moved within a week at the end of March 2020. From being a business, I was in the office most of the time. I did most of its business face-to-face to be one that can fully function working from home all of the time. Then increasingly over the last year, finding a middle ground of hybrid working as the business starts to return to some form of predictable rhythm.

At the same time, we’re very proud in the 12 months after the pandemic started. We helped almost 250,000 people find their next job. An 80% of them were interviewed, agreed on terms, resigned from their existing job, and started a new job all remotely. A significant change in the market and our business model. And in the finance function, we’re very proud that during the pandemic, we paid 65,000 contractors intense every week accurately and on time, and we collected £120 million of cash every week. And then finally, and most importantly, we found a way to try and look after our employees, work with them, and train them and support them through the most difficult times.

4. As you mentioned, you’ve held multiple leadership positions in different organisations. How does this compare to other crises you’ve experienced over the course of your career so far?

(6:52) I think the main difference in leading a business pre-pandemic versus the 2008 financial crash when I was also at Hays is on three levels. First, I think on a personal level, it was a global health crisis with people being ill and dying around the world, and all of us concerned about our own families and our colleagues. Take into the sheer speed of the collapse in business activity, in part driven by the unprecedented state lockdown of many aspects of business and society. And the uncertainty about how long it would last and how bad it would mean. Maybe, it was in many respects a quite scary time. And thirdly, the instant remove to working remotely, whether that would work effectively and efficiently with any clients have demand for our services. Without doubt, it was also the one of the most exhilarating times in my career, one of the unique times where you can get to use all the skills you developed over 40 years in business all at the same time and at an extreme pace.

5. Pre-COVID, what did a normal day look like in your role as Group Finance Director for a global business?

(8:01) Fortunately, I’m not sure if I had a normal day back then. But most days, like a lot of people, I catch up with a couple of my key team members and have discussions with Alistair, the CEO, and other senior members of the business. I attend business reviews with the regions and many countries and deal with any important commercial issues that arise.

How has that normal changed as a result of the crisis?

I think the main difference is where I do the work. Pre-pandemic, I traveled 12 weeks a year overseas doing face-to-face review meetings with our major businesses around the world, travelling frequently to Germany, France, Australia, US, China, Brazil. And in the other meetings and reviews, were mainly by conference calls. Whilst now, like all of us and perhaps like IT professionals have always been, most of my meetings other than the meetings with my direct reports are via Teams. And I definitely missed the personal contact with the teams around the world. But interestingly as we move, we hope into a more unrestricted world over the next year. I don’t expect to be abroad six weeks of the year going forward. And so I think we’ve all learned ways to work efficiently using different methodologies.

6. A 50% reduction in travel is significant. What lessons have you personally learned as a finance leader since the start of the pandemic?

(9:34) In many respects, it just reiterated the importance of your team. I think the pandemic has just stated the importance of surrounding yourself with a great team of people in all the key roles. Which for me include the group punch controller, regional and country FDs, and the heads of tax, treasury, internal audit, and investor relations. You can’t do it all yourself. The more complex and the greater the size of the business you are as a CFO, the better the team you need around you. A business is a team activity. And I think the difference for us as Hays’ senior team if I compare 2020 versus 2008, is that we went into the pandemic with a top-quality team around the world. We were really happy with the team we had. Whereas in 2008, I only joined in 2006, Alistair joined in 2007. There were still a few members of the team that we weren’t sure we’re going to make it. I have to tell you it is one of the greatest things in this pandemic is being surrounded by that calibre of management team. It actually made us making hard decisions quickly much easier.

7. What impacts, positive and negative, do you think working remotely or in a hybrid way has had on finance teams and CFOs?

(10:50) I think on the positive side of it, one of the things that struck me specifically early on was just the teamwork and the extra effort by the global finance team, especially during the start of the crisis. In the first three to six months, the performance was excellent. And the team performance exceeded our expectations. Everybody really went the extra mile. They knew that this was an unprecedented situation. And I think they did a superb job. For example, it’s a time when you might have thought it was difficult to get cash out of our customers. We achieved consistently record, low DSOs (Day Sales Outstanding) over the last 18 months.

On the negatives, and it’s kind of a negative with a positive at the end, perhaps. After that initial period and the energy that everybody had working remotely in crisis management, the feedback we got from our teams is that increasingly felt self-isolated. Working fully from home and finding it impossible or very difficult to switch off when am I working and when am I on my personal life. And that’s actually the move to scheduled hybrid workings, where you’re in the office with the teams two to three days a week but also working from home. It is face-to-face teamwork on one side had transfer best practice and offers the benefits of home working and better home life balance. So perhaps this negative actually is becoming a positive as we look at the next three to five years.

8. The world of work has changed enormously. Do you think it’s become increasingly important for you and for your teams to continue to learn and upskill?

(12:36) I think continuous learning and upskilling is a vital way of keeping yourself current and relevant. And actually, therefore, if you don’t do that, at some point in time, you’re going to be behind the pace. Whether it’s technology, accounting standards, or changes in legislation. We try and encourage all of our teams to take half a day a month to stay current, and that includes me. So I try to take perhaps a Friday afternoon towards the end of the month when I’m pretty tired. And I’ll catch up on a video, on a new standard, or a new form of technology. I think that just keeps you fresh as well.

How do you make this a priority, particularly when teams are busy when the pace of work is so fast?

I think it’s carving out time. And then the other thing which is interesting at the moment was the day-to-day operations were really, really good during the pandemic. It works efficiently. What’s fascinating as well, reflecting on your earlier question, as we move into a process of improvement and innovation, how we need teams together, and we need a team that has got current skills. So I think it’s vital to make sure that you can do a great job.

Well, CFOs and their teams become even more of a fundamental in driving growth, change, and innovation to their organisations in the future.

I actually think a strong commercial CFO and finance team has always played an important role in helping drive growth, innovation, and change. Today, that role is enhanced, I think, because of the importance of data. The part of the secret source for any successful finance professional today and tomorrow is the ability to systemise and automate the collection of vital and accurate operational and financial data that can be sliced and diced, and then to interpret it and present it to key operators to enable them to make faster, smarter decision making. And quite frankly, you didn’t have the technology to do that 40 years ago. Whereas today, you’ve got a real ability, even a big complex business like Hays in 33 countries, to look at summaries at one level that enable an operator to drill right down the information that is valuable in them deciding how they run their businesses.

9. Do you think automation and technology will radically impact or change the finance function in the future?

(15:02) I think the use of smart technology is absolutely critical in driving efficiencies. The automation or elimination of manual tasks as part has continuously reducing the cost of transactional finance. So I think that’s been the case for a long time. But as the use of AI specifically develops, which is relatively new technology over the next five to 10 years, many of the non-value-added non-personal processes will be automated. But again, this has the real benefit as it has over the last 10 to 20 years. They are freeing up time for school finance professionals to focus their time on analysis and decision-making. But for finance professionals to do that, they’ve really got to stay current on technology.

10. As we mentioned at the start of the podcast, you have a wealth of experience. Over the course of your career, how has the role of CFO changed so far?

(15:54) This feels like ancient history, but over 38 years in finance and 25 years as an SD. The role has changed in many ways. I’d almost just identified perhaps four. Firstly, the business has become more global, with lower margins, the need for much faster decision making, the needs for businesses to become more efficient to survive, and the exponential growth in technology, data, and product choice. But there are some parts of a successful CFO that have been changed. The importance of having a real feel for trading trends in the business and numbers. And building a strong team of accurate and timely payroll and financials, and the ability to collect cash on a timely basis. These are as vital today as they were when I started.

The fundamental difference, this is now versus 20 to 30 years ago, is just the pace and change of technology. And that’s how finance teams perform their role has been revolutionised and continues to change on a rapid basis. This also helped automate so many financial processes and the production of financial data itself. Today, month ends are done in two to five days, whereas when I started, you were lucky to have it done in 20 to 25!

11. That’s just such a radical change of pace. Has COVID accelerated this change?

(17:21) Yes. I think what it’s done is it made both businesses have to go back to first principles and think again. COVID bought the ability more important than belief that many processes can be done efficiently or remotely. And that leads to the obvious question, as my Australian FD said about a year ago now. If a task can be performed efficiently from Bondi Beach, it can also be done for Manila. And therefore, for all finance functions, which aspects of the business should be done in-country, regionally, or globally in lower-cost shared service centres? And whilst that debate has been around for 25 years, it’s probably more in the headlights today.

My own view is that the greater degree of technical knowledge needed around a role and personal contact in a role, the more local those roles will always be. If you’re in credit control, if you’re in payroll, that knowledge is incredibly important in the country, and I think that’s likely to say, as well as decision support. But the less technical knowledge lately, the less personal contact, the more admin based, then the more global it can be done. I think most companies will re-evaluate the finance functions under this lens over the next five years.

12. Obviously, it’s not just your role or the role of your department, but the roles reporting into you and those functions that report into you. Have you seen those change as well over the years?

(18:43) For years, the roles are pretty much still the same. But the importance of technology and data has increased. And therefore you can’t be an effective finance professional without being a very strong technical abilities. And also, all finance teams. It’s a little bit like all marketing teams now is all about data marketing. For our finance teams, we’ve all got data analysts in the teams and that role will haven’t been invented 20 years ago.

13. Has the CFO role become, in your opinion, has it become more cross-functional or cross-departmental?

(19:18) Yes. I think because faster decision making has been modus operandi now for the last 5 to 10 years. Businesses have had to become more connected. The need for a CFO to work closely in tandem, whether operational, IT, HR, colleagues has increased in importance. And then finally, and I hate to end this section on the negative, but one of the other largest changes to finance teams over the last 25 years has been the sheer increase in admin burden and corporate governance imposed on business by governments around the world. And unfortunately, I don’t see that trend reversing.

14. As we look towards growth and recovery, what are the top three strategic priorities that you’re focused on right now as the CFO of, as you mentioned, a global business?

(20:07) First, in the business itself, I mean, Hays is the largest recruitment specialism, which represents more than a quarter of our business is in technology. And we’re a number two global player in that specialism. Our number one strategic priority is to double the size of our technology business over the next five years. And that would improve our pre-pandemic profits alone, just if we achieved that in technology by more than £100 million. I and my team are determined to play a leading role in making this happen.

Then secondly, as part of the finance function, we’ve established a global project to look at all aspects of our major financial processes globally. And make sure that they’re as efficiently as possible as I explained earlier in a post-pandemic world. And that’s certainly my second priority. And then finally, and this is kind of always one of the three. The focus is always on strength and depth to the finance team. And to ensure that we continue to provide a challenging, motivating, and rewarding career path globally to continue to develop our talent. These team members who continue to ensure that we can offer a great service to all of our stakeholders in the business. This is both a passion for me personally and also a stated strategy.

15. For those listeners who are hearing you talk who think that this might be a career path for them, who perhaps even aspire to become a CFO one day, what advice would you share with them to help them get there?

(21:38) I think, first of all, don’t look too far ahead and focus what skills I don’t have the same level of skills as a CFO in my business today. I think, first, try and ensure earlier in your career that you’re working for people you respect, and you can learn from, and as to get as much experience as possible. Working payroll or credit control lengthen processes. So you know how important the basics are. If there’s a shared service center abroad, go and do a stint in that shared service center. Work on projects even more if they’re on a global basis, and worked with projects where you’re working with colleagues from different departments. So you start to get a really good network and understanding for the business you’re in today.

Secondly, you will learn many of the most important lessons in your first finance director role. And ideally, try and make sure you’ve got supportive MD, and also somebody with a finance background who can mentor you. Perhaps somebody who you worked with five, ten, 15 years ago that you’d value their opinion. Throw yourself fully into the role. Don’t be afraid to make decisions. Focus on the people. And equally, don’t dwell too much when you make mistakes. And reiterating what I said earlier on, the third point, the bigger the role, the more important it is. Not just to surround yourself with great people, but also to remove any culture assassins in a business and poor performers who are not prepared to change. A strong team is the best guarantee that you’ll be successful.

And then finally, don’t just bring your scale energy and organisation to roll, bring humour. If you think about it, we spend 40 to 70 hours at work a week. And getting to know your team, showing that you’re human, and using humour is vital to ensure connection with the team, building a positive culture, and an improved performance.

I could not agree with you more on the importance of humour and a bond in the workplace. I think you’re absolutely right. We spend a large part of our weeks, and certainly our lives. And if that can be enjoyable, then you’ve got a committed team.

And even more now, because if we’re not careful over the last 18 months, some culture of the business can start to break. For example, we had an office get-together. It’s call a get-together last Thursday, pre the new restrictions coming in, et cetera. And just the energy you got from everybody in the room being together, able to talk to their friends and colleagues, that’s an important part. Celebrating success is an important part of building and maintaining a culture. And I think post-pandemic is absolutely vital as part of maintaining and creating a successful finance team.

16. You’ve already given a wealth of really good advice there, but would you have anything specifically for someone who’s perhaps starting out in the role of CFO, and how they can make a strong initial impact?

(24:41) Well, we’re not just going to give some help, Chloe. We will also give them a video they can watch. So increasingly, we’re recording a video series in January about what it takes to be a successful finance director. And the second video is all about how to make a successful impact as a new CFO in your first 90 days. So a 62nd snapshot in summary, are the financials accurate and timely? Do you have enough cash in facilities at the bank, evaluating the strength and depth of the finance team? Do the finance processes work efficiently? Investing time with the key operators in the business to get a clearer understanding of their strategic priorities, and also how they view the finance team.

Visit as many locations and departments in the business as possible. Walk the floor. Talk to the people at the coalface in an organisation and meet customers. And then, with that knowledge across the business, start to develop a clear, concise prioritised plan. Ideally, no longer than two sides of paper. But what you want to do, and take the CEO through the plan, you’ll need their support and investment. And then when the plan is agreed, decide on the key people roles, communicate the plan with the team, and then execute in the right priority order. And if this is of interest to you, and you’re starting a new role, I suggest you watch the five minute video which covers these points in greater detail when we issue in February.

17. I would like to end on a question that we asked all of our podcast guests. What do you think are the top three qualities that make a good leader? And crucially, do you think these qualities have changed as a result of the pandemic?

(26:41) First, I think good judgment. What do I mean by that? I mean, a sound and balanced business judgment. Secondly, in people. A good instinct for people and a strong belief in developing them and building a strong team. And third, creative drive. The ability to spot trends, drive the business forward to exploit them. And the good news is, these are important today post-pandemic as they were before, and that will be in 20 years’ time.

Did you enjoy this podcast on the role of CFO? Here is some related content that you may be interested in:

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You’ve just had your year-end performance review. And you’re not happy.

There could be several reasons for your dissatisfaction. You might have been seeking a promotion that wasn’t forthcoming, or you’ve been denied a new position you were pushing for. Perhaps the pay rise your manager proposed wasn’t as significant as you’d have liked (or felt you deserved). Or, on the other hand, it could be that you weren’t expecting negative feedback; in which case my colleague, Jane McNeill, has some advice on what to do.

While we strive for positive feedback and rewards, it’s not uncommon to feel aggrieved or downtrodden following a year-end performance review. Though I’d always advise that you take time to reflect in this situation, it’s important to be proactive. Not making any changes is unlikely to yield the results you’re after, so it’s best to take steps that minimise the chances of a repeat next year. Similarly, it may help you decide whether it’s time to begin, or speed up, the search for a new job.

Here’s my take on what to do following the meeting.

1. Identify exactly why you are unhappy

I realise that this may sound obvious. However, as I’ve outlined in my introduction, your disappointment could come as a result of several factors. Here are some questions to consider:

  • Do you feel that any negative feedback was fair or not?
  • Did your manager adequately explain his/her/their reasoning for the comments?
  • If there’s more than one reason that you’re dissatisfied, which is the most important to you? Are any of the reasons linked? (for example a lack of promotion with no significant increase in pay)

2. Take the feedback on board

Even if you are unhappy with the outcome of your year-end performance review, it’s still important to take notice of the feedback. Whether the overall message from your manager was positive or negative, it shouldn’t be ignored, even if you believe it to be unfair. It’s also important to remember that, in some instances, your direct manager may not have been able to give you what you wanted due to company policies or factors outside of his/her/their control, even if you’d earned it.

You should receive a copy of your review in written form. However, if there were any details or extra points raised during a meeting, be sure to make a list. I’d advise that you divide them into positives, negatives and targets. Regardless of whether or not you stay at the company for next year’s appraisal, this will provide you with advice and a benchmark for any progress or goals.

3. Consider your career goals

Think about your career goals, both in the short term and the long term. Deciding what you want from your career will inform how you perceive your current role.

Are there certain skills you wish to learn in order to achieve those goals? Do you need any accreditations, and are these an urgent priority for you? Maybe salary is important to you in the short term, but experience will be valuable in the long run.

4. Assess options

You’ve looked ahead, and now it’s time to take action. Consider these questions:

  • Will your short-term and long-term goals be met in your current role?
  • Are you learning hard skills that will help you in the future?
  • Are you getting the experience you need for your desired career path?
  • Is there an opportunity to change role in your current company, or can your role be refreshed to suit your ambitions?
  • Is your salary in line with what’s being offered elsewhere?

If the answer to the majority of these questions is “no”, then you may be best served by looking elsewhere to continue your career. At many companies, your situation is unlikely to change until your next year-end performance review, which is a long time to wait if you’re dissatisfied. Any resentment you bear may well lead to a decline in your attitude and leave you even less happy.

And what if your answers to the above questions are mostly “yes”? In this case, the decision will not be so straightforward, so you’ll need to weigh up your career goals and decide on your priorities.

I should note that being comfortable in your role doesn’t mean that you should necessarily stay where you are, either. As I’ve previously written, there are several reasons to start a job search even if you’re content at your current company. Furthermore, many people view staying in the same place as the easier option.

5. Start the new year afresh

Whether you choose to commit to your current role or to move forward with your job search, it’s important to look ahead. You can’t change the outcome of your year-end performance review so, although you may hold some negative feelings toward others (or even yourself), you’ll need to focus on what you can do to improve things. Making an effort will pay off.

Did you find this blog useful? Here is some related content that you might find helpful:

If you, as the Executive (boss, manager, CEO, C-Suite director), want your Assistant (EA, PA) to help you reach your full potential and do the most effective job you can, then there is immense value in building a powerful partnership. A proactive Assistant will do all the traditional tasks plus much more as they are a treasure trove of untapped potential.

I have received testimonials from Executives saying how my books have helped them understand what their Assistants are capable of and can aspire to. Here are a few pointers to help you and your Assistant have an exceptional working relationship to exceed and excel in both your roles.

  1. Facilitate open and honest communication. Let your Assistant know the real you and not just the person you portray to the rest of the organisation! Trust them so they can anticipate and pre-empt your needs. Executives need to help Assistants understand what is critical to their day, week, month and year. Have daily catch ups, even if for only five or ten minutes in the morning and evening as things are constantly changing.
  2. Create a system between you so that you know when you need to reply to each other immediately by whatever communication channel you choose. Prioritise each other when it is required, showing that you value and respect each other and important and urgent activities are accomplished.
  3. Respect each other. Respect works both ways and is earned. Remember they are there to “have your back” – they will act as your sounding board and be your confidante. They can help you strategise, formulate your next steps and put them into action. Sometimes you will “let off steam” – your Assistant must learn to not take it personally. However, if you realise that you have done this, then apologise and explain calmly what it was that upset you.
  4. Empower your Assistant to do the tasks that you do not need to do. Are you spending time and energy on something your Assistant can do for you? To empower them you need to give them the permission to do it, power to make decisions and protection if things do not go quite to plan. With ongoing communication, things that may go wrong will be minimised and even eliminated.
  5. Trust your Assistant with your calendar. Managing your own schedule is a waste of your expertise and resources. Having only one person working on it means you will be reminded of your plans on a timely basis and that you are fully prepared. To help your Assistant, let them know which meetings can be moved if necessary and when they (or anyone else) can and cannot interrupt you for urgent matters. Once they understand the way you want to work, they will be able to pre-empt you and ‘time-block’ your calendar to incorporate daily meetings, routines and jobs.
  6. Inform your Assistant of your weaknesses. Your assistant can complement you and make your weaknesses their strengths. For example, if you are a “big picture” person, make sure they know this so they can take the detailed perspective and vice versa.
  7. Inform your Assistant of your goals and vision. Explain the strategy that you are working towards and the mission and vision of your organisation, so they understand and realise how they can help you.
  8. Encourage your Assistant to challenge your thinking. Look at alternative perspectives, think about cause and effect and let them know you value their observations, suggestions and advice.
  9. Ask your Assistant to attend meetings. This will give them a better understanding of the organisation, your roles within it and increase their business acumen. Make sure that you listen and act when your Assistant is prompting you to move on to another point on the agenda so you stay on track.
  10. Keep your Assistant in the loop of your conversations, promises and commitments. If you make a commitment to someone about anything, make sure your Assistant knows so they can either activate or help you keep your promises.
  11. Develop a feedback culture and provide frequent ongoing constructive feedback. Ask for feedback from your Assistant as to what could be done differently, what is being done well and what you can stop doing.
  12. Offer learning and development strategies on a regular basis. Encourage them to grow by attending training, conferences and webinars, and perhaps to gain certificates in related subjects.
  13. Encourage your Assistant to network. Growing their circle of contacts and building relationships may turn out to be very useful through sharing knowledge.   
  14. Let the organisation know that you support your Assistant’s decisions and appreciate their advice. The Assistant is your eyes and ears in the office and colleagues need to know that they have your trust and authority.
  15. Lastly, but importantly, thank your Assistant regularly for the hard work they do. Pay them a well-deserved salary that equates to the value they give you.

A true business partnership helps you contribute to a successful career for both of you as well as making the organisation profitable, but it does not just happen – both parties have to work at it and excellent communication skills are the key. Good luck!

‘The Definitive Executive Assistant & Managerial Handbook – 2nd edition’ is out now on the Sue France website – use code “FAVOUR” (in caps) to receive a 20% discount on all of Sue’s books. If the books are a gift and you would like a personal note written inside, let Sue know at sue@suefrance.com once purchased.

On Friday 5th November I was part of a panel at COP26 in Glasgow, brought together to discuss the topic of green skills in the future world of work and their role in the journey to Net Zero.

During the event, I spoke about the skills gap and how green skills are needed across the specialisms in which Hays operates. Meanwhile, the increased prevalence of “sustainability” in job titles year on year is an indication of how the Net Zero journey will create roles globally in the years to come.

I was joined on the panel by:

  • Amber Rudd – Former Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change and FGH Advisor
  • Jonathan Townsend – UK Chief Executive, Prince’s Trust
  • Richard Hamer – Director of Education and Skills, BAE Systems
  • Sue Duke – Vice President, Head of Global Public Policy and Economic Graph, LinkedIn

Hays’ own commitment to reducing our impact on the planet

As a purpose-led business, Hays is keen to lead from the front on climate change. I’m proud to announce that we are a carbon-neutral company for the first time in our history, while our CEO, Alistair Cox, has recently written about the steps we are already taking to ensure we meet our Net Zero target.